September 28, 2007 9:24 AM
Boulder students pledge allegiance to flag, not to God
A dozen students at Boulder High School walked out of class Thursday to protest the words "under God" in the Plege of Allegience, reports Berny Morson.
Saying the Pledge of Allegiance isn't mandatory at Boulder High School, but some students don't even want to hear it.At issue are the words "under God."
"For me, this is all about separation of church and state," said senior Emma Martens, 17.
Martens was among about a dozen students who walked out of class Thursday when the pledge was broadcast. They are members of the social protest group Student Worker, a longtime organization at Boulder High.
About 100 other students watched as the group recited their own pledge to the American flag, the Constitution and the planet - with no reference to God.
Here's the pledge as revised by the students:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag and my constitutional rights with which it comes. And to the diversity, in which our nation stands, one nation, part of one planet, with liberty, freedom, choice and justice for all."
Principal Bud Jenkins said he was "proud of the kids."
If they don't like something, they are following a democratic process of telling the community that they don't like it."Colorado law requires public schools to "provide an opportunity each school day for willing students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance."
At Boulder High, students may remain seated during the pledge. They may not disrupt others who want to participate.
Last year, students who wanted to say the pledge gathered in the auditorium during the lunch hour. Only about 10 students and two teachers showed up regularly, Jenkins said.
September 28, 2007
9:56 AM
shaggy writes:
Four words for the kids who walked out:
Stay out, don't return.
Four words for the teachers at Boulder high:
Teach the kids history.
Four words for Boulder:
Tase this......F*** Boulder
September 28, 2007
10:04 AM
jay writes:
It is far far past time to remove that ridiculous McCarthy Era addition to the Pledge.
September 28, 2007
10:10 AM
Mark Wolf writes:
Absolutely let's teach history.
Let's remind students that the original pledge, written by a socialist, didn't include the words "under God." Those words didn't appear until 1954.
September 28, 2007
10:12 AM
B writes:
It is far past time that we stop caring what those spoiled little brats in Boulder do to call attention to themselves.
September 28, 2007
10:15 AM
Oh Wise One writes:
Has anyone noticed the Red Star on the banner of the "Youth Worker" group? Does this shout Communist or Socialist to anyone? Does the Soviet Union ring any bells?
The RockyMountainRag called the group a "protest" group. How about some background on this group and the roots thereof?
jay and his McCarthy Era might not be far from the truth.
September 28, 2007
10:19 AM
Oh Wise One writes:
Mark Wolf, since you obviously read the comments- Why don't you provide some background on this "Youth Worker" group. When did it form? Why was it formed, ie the first cause? Who formed it? What have those founders done since the inception?
Do some reporting Mr. Wolf, inquiring minds want to know.
September 28, 2007
10:31 AM
Anonymous writes:
Suspend the kids.
Case closed.
September 28, 2007
10:33 AM
Mark Wolf writes:
They've been around since the late 1990s. Involved in such events as the 2001 kiss-in that supported alternative sexuality and a 2005 sleep-in to protest the war in Iraq.
September 28, 2007
10:35 AM
JW writes:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag and my constitutional rights with which it comes. And to the diversity, in which our nation stands, one nation, part of one planet, with liberty, freedom, choice and justice for all."
I can see why people are pissed about this. I mean hell, what is American about ANYTHING in that pledge (besides the flag, Ill give you that).
Diversity? Look, we want your "Tired, your poor, and your downtrodden". This does lead to diversity, sure, but thats not the point. We want SPECIFICALLY a diversity of "Poor, downtrodden, tired" people because we need...more servants. Duh! Its not like we want diversity at the TOP. Jeez.
"Part of one Planet"?
WTF? If they rephrased this it could be acceptable..."The dominant part of one Planet." That I can get behind. This other is just pandering to people who are in need of subjugation at our hands. Why pander? Let them know EXACTLY where they stand...Below America and Americans!
"Liberty, Choice, Freedom, and Justice for all."
This is just silly. Obviously they have forgotten that there are "Traitors"in this nation opposed to us. You hear them all the time in the form of Moveon.org, the ACLU, and any other FAR LEFT group out there. They dont get these things, and that would be obvious if these commies took a look at gitmo, the MCA of 06, and our policy of extrordinary rendition. Besides, including "Choice" is obviously trying to promote abortion.
Justice for people like these includes a long plane trip strapped to a chair wearing a blindfold and earmuffs which culminates in a quick trip to the "Waterboarding funhouse!"
What a bunch of crap.
September 28, 2007
10:41 AM
shaggy writes:
Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892.
http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm
He also wanted to include the word "equality" but back in that era people were against giving rights to women and blacks.
These kids are just attention seekers just like the editor at CSU, the idiot in Florida and the President at Columbia University.
Non of these pukes are any better than Ward Churchill, in fact he is probably their idol..
Funny thing is is that all of these idots will probably end up hiring the smug David Lane.
September 28, 2007
10:45 AM
Dirk Gently writes:
I agree, JW, they're being silly with their "new" pledge, even if I support their decision to walk out. And in a way they're undermining the whole point:
1. "Under God" was a late edition to the pledge, and in fact one that turns the pledge from that of pleding to the nation/Constitution and its concomitant Enlightenment ideals, into pledging allegiance to a country blessed by God (which shoehorns in notions of Providence and Deism at the very least--the sort of "God is on our side" dutifulness that leads toward fascism).
2. I am quite ready to draw fire for this, but I question the purpose of having a pledge in the first place. Is it really taken seriously? Why should we pledge our allegiance to a nation state? Why not pledge allegiance to a certain set of ideals that can be promoted and promulgated elsewhere? I've long thought the pledge had more of a quasi-fascist kind of taint to it (pledging to a country and its symbols), rather than what I feel SHOULD be the purpose of a pledge, if we are to have one: to instill in youth respect for this nation's (non-exclusive) founding ideals, and appreciation for the sacrifice, at every level, that this entails.
September 28, 2007
10:47 AM
jay writes:
"The Pledge of Allegiance was written for the popular children's magazine Youth's Companion by Christian Socialist author and Baptist minister Francis Bellamy on September 7, 1892. The owners of Youth's Companion were selling flags to schools, and approached Bellamy to write the Pledge for their advertising campaign. It was marketed as a way to celebrate the 400th anniversary of Columbus arriving in the Americas and was first published on the following day."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance
September 28, 2007
10:50 AM
Art writes:
Yes Mark, report the HIstory..
That the Communists wanted to destroy the United States from within...that is the dirty secret of the ACLU.....
And that a banner with a Red Star and WORKERS is an OVERT act that supports that assertion..
And that the Peoples Republic of Boulder is becoming a reality...supported by the SCHOOLS..
Or are you a M$M Journalist dealing in INFOTAINMENT instead of a REPORTER that REPORTS THE NEWS, without spin..
September 28, 2007
11:05 AM
just sayin' writes:
geez, some of you are angry. I don't do pledges. How often do any of you say the pledge? I don't recall doing the pledge in high school but that was in the 70's before all the jingoism we've got today.
September 28, 2007
11:06 AM
Angela writes:
I believe kids should not be forced to say it, but by walking out, they were being disruptive. Besides that, this is high school we are talking about. Kids will walk out of a classroom to "protest" anything just to get out of class. Most of them don't even care about the issue they are protesting.
September 28, 2007
11:08 AM
Dirk Gently writes:
Haha, we have our first batshit post of the day! Well done, Art.
If the ACLU overtly supports Communists, they sure do go about it in funny ways. Their support of the KKK and none other than commie Larry Craig ( http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3611682 ), and their vociferous support of numerous Christian organizations ( http://aclufightsforchristians.com/ ). Right wing pundits try to label the ACLU as some crazy leftist organization, but they remain true to their principles, even if they get the most RECENT press for defending lefty people/causes.
Now as far as the origins of the youth group go, perhaps they do lie in communism (at least in terms of the old school worker's party style--I sincerely doubt the origins are Leninist, Maoist or Stalinist). So the fuck what?
September 28, 2007
11:08 AM
Angela writes:
I believe kids should not be forced to say it, but by walking out, they were being disruptive. Besides that, this is high school we are talking about. Kids will walk out of a classroom to "protest" anything just to get out of class. Most of them don't even care about the issue they are protesting.
September 28, 2007
11:13 AM
John Q writes:
At 17 these students only "Think" they know what the world is about. This is really all about getting attention. Besides, its Boulder, the second most socialist city in America next to San Fran.
September 28, 2007
11:15 AM
jay writes:
batshit post
lol
Art you'll fit in just fine with some of your far right bretheren here...see...John Q is right behind you.
September 28, 2007
11:16 AM
Anonymous writes:
If they want to walk out, fine...let them. When they get back, they will learn that the weekend's assignment is a 1,000 word essay on the origins of civil disobedience, since that is a topic that is obviously near and dear to them. .
Next subject.
September 28, 2007
11:22 AM
Anonymous writes:
They wish to pledge to diversity in the nation while living in the Boulder which is 96% white approximately. These kids be brainwashed. Gag
September 28, 2007
11:29 AM
Algore for Prezidunz writes:
jay- so Boulder isn't the second most liberal city in the US of A? Or do you just like to pretend to be intelligent.
Did John Q get it wrong, is Boulder #3 or 4?
Show us your knowledge jaydoubleu.
September 28, 2007
11:48 AM
jay writes:
Al...if you don't get the joke...ask yourself...what critieria makes boulder the "second most socialist city in America"?
September 28, 2007
12:09 PM
Chris writes:
I must say that, while I am not a man of faith myself, it is impossible to ignore the fact that religion is engrained in our society. There will never be a true separation of church and state, nor should there be. This country was founded on a very heavy religious background, and it is still a large part of the backbone of society today. While we have the right and freedom to acknowledge or ignore it, it shall remain for quite some time. These students were being disrespectful to their peers by disrupting their peers' time to salute the country we live in, and that is disheartening.
September 28, 2007
12:13 PM
Kris writes:
I am a man of faith, but I don't believe in pushing it down anyone's throat. I understand this country wasn't founded on a christian belief system and support a solid separation of church and state. I am more than satisfied by rejoicing in my faith privately.
September 28, 2007
12:16 PM
history buff writes:
Mark, did you post this topic to bring the wackos out of the woodwork or what?
If Boulder is socialistic, why are the housing prices so high? Why is there so much business development?
I think the complainers are mostly jealous. What else?
September 28, 2007
12:16 PM
Dirk Gently writes:
I think the question of whether these students were disrespectful is a bit of a red herring. Whether or not any act of civil disobedience is "right" or "wrong," by its nature it is always "disrespectful" in as much as it holds the majority view/authority in contempt. The whole POINT of this is to overtly call into question the norm, which is that students are compelled to make a pledge which includes the words "under God."
I have to say, I do like the idea of having these kids write an essay on the history of civil disobedience, ending with a brief examination of how their actions fall within that history. Whether you regard this as punishment or not, I think it's nonetheless a useful exercise. If they truly admire free thinking, then they should welcome the opportunity to learn something.
September 28, 2007
12:39 PM
aAlgore for Prezidunz writes:
history duff- housing prices are artificially high in Boulder because of the restrictions placed on developers by the City and County of. They managed to do what good socialists do and "ruin" costs for average citizens. Of course, the definition of "ruin" depends on the haves or have nots.
September 28, 2007
12:53 PM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
I have no problem with kids deciding whether or not they will say the pledge, but it is their desire to prevent others from doing it that is at the heart of my problem with them.
Under God was added by that fascist war criminal Ike to counter the gains that communists were making in the 50s.
I think local school boards should decide these issues and no one should be coerced, which applies to both ways.
We pledged at every football game we attended with our kids. I believe in the rule of local culture and would never want to get in the way of the culture in Boulder. What I do want to see is no tax money going into CU at Boulder. Let them fend for themselves in the marketplace of ideas.
Just say no to government re-education camps.
September 28, 2007
1:05 PM
Dirk Gently writes:
So....delimiting development is socialistic HOW? Algore, you're right about this being a contributing factor to the high cost of housing, etc. in Boulder. But I fail to see how it's socialistic. Perhaps you need to reacquaint yourself with what socialism actually entails.
(Here we go, kids....)
Hogar: I think the first half of what you say is something I can sign on to. There is a difference between standing up for yourself and grandstanding. I'm not sure whether these kids crossed the line, but the kids who WANT to say "under God" should be allowed to do so.
The last bit of red meat you threw out is of course patently absurd. First off, CU more or less does fend for itself in the marketplace of ideas: its public funding is pathetic, but they manage to do better than most in getting funding from private organizations/donors (they also get hefty gov't research grants for things like aerospace and the like). You can point to Ward Churchill all you like, he still remains the exception to the rule in terms of (1) overt expression of political bias in class; (2) plagiarism and/or dubious research.
CU is a Research One institution, ranked #11 in public universities in the world, and the overwhelming majority of research done there is high in quality and is not consistently any particular political viewpoint that we would recognize in every day terms as being either "liberal" or "conservative" (even in the overwhelmingly left-centric social sciences and humanities).
But no, I guess I have to appreciate the consistency of your opinion that any kind of knowledge-creation that runs contrary to your profoundly fundamentalist view of the world should automatically be defunded and deemed suspect.
September 28, 2007
1:10 PM
Anonymous writes:
i dunno hogar .... why did you come here? .... everyone is either a fascist, a loony liberal, or a god-hater ....... maybe you made a mistake?
September 28, 2007
1:10 PM
JW writes:
"Just say no to government re-education camps."
Better expand skilled labor immigration then. We are going to need educated people from abroad to run our companies. The last thing we need is a bunch of uneducated "Hogar's" running our companies. Board meetings will focus on business strategy defined by "What Jesus would do" or "What this 2k year old book says we should do".
Why is it the only people who despise education are the uneducated?
Again, most CEO's have at minimum 6 years of "government re-education".
September 28, 2007
1:14 PM
shaggy writes:
Here is all I have to say to all you non believers that want to take a postion and speak out that god does not exist:
You better make damn sure your right.
September 28, 2007
1:15 PM
JW writes:
"Again, most CEO's have at minimum 6 years of "government re-education"."
Sorry, thats 6 years of college "Government Re-education." Realistically, it should say;
Again, most CEO's have at minimum 18 years of "government re-education".
September 28, 2007
1:27 PM
JW writes:
"You better make damn sure your right."
Why? If God does exist, there is nothing that proves hes the infinitely "Loving, Just, and Forgiving" God that likes to watch people burn forever.
If God exists, he may not give a crap about you.
Or, as Tyler Durden would say...
"Shut up! Our fathers were our models for God. If our fathers bailed, what does that tell you about God? Listen to me! You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen. "
September 28, 2007
1:42 PM
Dirk Gently writes:
Shaggy, not everyone takes Pascal's wager, I hope you realize. Here are some reasons why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager#Criticisms
Further, I appreciate your concern for me. However, I choose not to have my life revolve around fear. Try it sometime, you'll find it to be very "liberating." ;)
September 28, 2007
1:43 PM
KW writes:
It appears they did break the rules by disrupting the others with their walkout. Punishment is definitely in order.
But I do like the "one nation, part of one planet" line. That tells me they support our presence in Iraq as well as extending that gift of democracy to all corners of the earth.
What noble children!
/sarcasm
September 28, 2007
1:51 PM
shaggy writes:
I wonder if they have blogs in hell?
Maybe some of you Demoralrats can let us know?
September 28, 2007
1:57 PM
brad writes:
If these childen don't like something they have a temper tanturm. I'am sure that theses childeren get there ideas from home and not on there own. Still going to school hopefully they khow they do not have the same rights as adults. You have to be over the age of 18 to have all civil rights, under 18 you have some but not all, going to BHS don't they teach the childen that go there that as they should be doing. Whats up the the Principal Bud Jenkins being proud of them he should embarrassed if the "kids" don not kown this and by his and the schools actions.
September 28, 2007
1:58 PM
Anonymous writes:
Did God make us? Or did we make God?
September 28, 2007
2:01 PM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
Dirk,
Here is another reason I don't want tax money going to colleges. 20% of the athletic department's budget goes to provided "academeic" scholarships for the like of Mike Vick.
The University of Colorado athletic department's initial budget request for an approaching school year eclipsed $40 million for the first time Thursday.
The department's $41,642,825 initial budget for 2007-08 was approved by the Board of Regents. It is nearly $4 million more than the $37,691,000 request submitted last summer.
Tuition hikes are one factor in rising costs across the board throughout the department. The overall scholarship bill for more than 300 student athletes is approaching $8 million. But there are other new costs as well.
September 28, 2007
2:10 PM
Anonymous writes:
"Here is all I have to say to all you non believers that want to take a postion and speak out that god does not exist:
You better make damn sure your right."
And what do you care if we're wrong? Let us make that choice...and keep your faith out of our schools.
September 28, 2007
2:23 PM
KW writes:
"Let us make that choice...and keep your faith out of our schools."
Just as long as you keep your socialist economics programs out of our government.
Deal?
September 28, 2007
2:31 PM
jay writes:
I had no idea there was such a thing as separation of fiscal policies and state.
Which "socialist" programs are you talking about there kw?
by the way...still waiting on that answer to the draft question when you have time....see the drive-in thread
September 28, 2007
3:07 PM
history buff writes:
Student worker sounds as oxymoronic as conservative think tank.
September 28, 2007
3:07 PM
shaggy writes:
Wow, I try to help out our sinners on the left by giving them advice to keep them out of hell and all I get in return is a stern message to stay out of their life.
What a swell bunch of people you are.
BTW, Why aren't they having the DNC in Los Vegas instead of Denver?
Isn't that the true "Sin City"?
September 28, 2007
3:11 PM
history buff writes:
Shaggy, give us a break. You skipped Sunday school and never go to church. You are not exactly the person to be asking anyone to repent.
September 28, 2007
3:17 PM
Anonymous writes:
That tells me they support our presence in Iraq as well as extending that gift of democracy to all corners of the earth..POSTED BY kw
yes we will be carpet bombing the world with Democracy
September 28, 2007
3:23 PM
Anonymous writes:
us-friendly democracy or else
September 28, 2007
3:30 PM
Dirk Gently writes:
Hogar: decent point about money devoted to athletics.
It's a pickle, I admit. On the one hand, spending millions on top notch athletes can pay dividends later on: if the football team gets back to top tier competition shape, the revenues from that builds buildings and hires professors; if not, then we waste millions on coaches' salaries and the occasional (not usual) worthless sonofabitch who belongs in prison, not university.
I agree with you that this requires reform, but I don't think this is a good enough reason to withdraw funding in general. Ultimately, if you don't like the way the university spends its money, work hard to affect the election of its regents.
September 28, 2007
3:44 PM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
Dirk,
The other thing is that if you look at the top college football teams, I don't see any of the top tier schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford etc.
Now I may simply be revealing my ignorance of the organization of college football, but it appears to me that the state schools have all the money to waste on these big football programs. Why, could it be that government money shields them from the realities of ignoring their main mission and instead focusing on this distraction. So now I have the added disctraction that my money in not only supporting the Ward Churchills of the world, but also the Michael Vicks of the world also.
September 28, 2007
3:48 PM
Steph writes:
The Pledge (like swearing on the bible) is absolutely meaningless. What exactly do either of these empty gestures accomplish?
People lie all the time after swearing on the bible and the government (especially THIS one) wipe their asses with it like they do with the constitution.
It's just empty rhetoric used to keep the ignorant in line.
September 28, 2007
3:50 PM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
Does anyone know where Tree has been lately? ;-)
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5709701,00.html
September 28, 2007
3:58 PM
gr8fuldude writes:
HDV - Nah, Tree's my age (think early forties)...my money says that guy was harry palm...
September 28, 2007
3:59 PM
shaggy writes:
I think I saw him Hog.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5709739,00.html
September 28, 2007
4:09 PM
KW writes:
jay - Hillarycare comes to mind. Did you forget that one?
BTW - I asked you to let me know when you get to the honesty about your motives destination on the draft. So far, doesn't appear you've even backed out of the driveway yet.
Let me know when you get at least that far, ok?
September 28, 2007
4:21 PM
Anonymous writes:
Isn’t Chandler Ross Wyatt a leader of the CU Young Republicans?
September 28, 2007
4:25 PM
jay writes:
lol....hillarycare....is socialized medicine? Do we have socialized law enforcement? How about socialized road departments?
KW...my position on the draft hasn't changed....either we send in enough troops needed to make progress in Iraq or we allow our soldiers to come home or redeploy to a position of support. I don't know what "motives" you're talking about beside the "motive" not to needlessly kill any more of our soldiers if we're not going to allow them the resources necessary to win the war. I can't imagine you disagree with any of that. My question really comes down to whether or not you believe we need the draft to send in another 150K troops...or if you have an alternative plan to round up the 150K. Which is it....draft or as of yet unheard of alternative?
September 28, 2007
5:57 PM
Dirk Gently writes:
Hogar, it bears mentioning that Stanford has not been great for some time, but every now and then will field a great team--this is after all Elway's alma mater--and other superior institutions like Rutgers, Northwestern, Purdue, etc. achieve greatly in football every now and then. The big ivies are more about family legacies rather than sporting legacies, anyway.
If you think the football programs are all about "shielding them from the realities of their main mission," then you do indeed have a very skewed understanding of the system.
I will concede, however, that schools may on occasion (more or less often, depending) place too high of a priority on athletics. This is not about avoidings responsibility for building up excellent research and teaching, however. It's about the money that comes in, as well as the harsh reality of today's tertiary climate: attracting top notch students has become a matter of having excellent athletics and other "wasteful" facilities like state of the art fitness centers and the like. And this is not the sole purview of state schools. Look at Exhibit A, DU: they spent $118 million on the Ritchie Center, which includes not only enormous rec and athletic facilities, but a fucking gold steeple and 29-bell carilon or something. How's THAT for wasteful? But alumni liked the idea, and DU argues that it helps recruit quality students (though I have no idea whether this really worked).
And of course arguably the worst offender in history for placing the importance of football above other aspects of an otherwise excellent university is Notre Dame, a Catholic private school.
My point is: what you decry is not really directly related to public funding, and in fact wholly private institutions like DU charge students nearly $30,000/year (or whatever it costs now) to help pay for stuff like the Ritchie Center. One could therefore make the case that this has a lot more to do with universities not being shielded ENOUGH from certain market forces, rather than the other way around.
September 28, 2007
6:26 PM
Uncle Raisin writes:
The very concept of justice presupposes an ultimate judge of the universe - a Divine. It's interesting that every atheist I have ever known understands and will advocate for justice. Ironic!
Uncle Raisin
www.UncleRaisin.com
"Raisin" the standard against injustice
September 29, 2007
12:22 PM
Anonymous writes:
why is it that the faithful always wrongly believe that justice and morals can only come from their god?
September 29, 2007
3:32 PM
Anonymous writes:
12:22 So what you believe is correct? Your a bigot.
September 29, 2007
6:45 PM
Uncle Raisin writes:
I don't know; I didn't name a God specifically. BTW, yes, I do think I am right. Would you tell me that you don't?
Uncle Raisin
www.Uncleraisin.com
"Raisin" the standard against injustice
September 30, 2007
9:43 AM
Anonymous writes:
uncle raisin maybe you could tell us why you think justice and morals do not exist outside of christianity
September 30, 2007
7:21 PM
Anonymous writes:
These are modern times. Its time to get rid of the pledge all together.
Instead lets replace it with a song.
"Party like a rock star, party like a rock star...."
September 30, 2007
7:48 PM
Uncle Raisin writes:
The term "Christianity" has become vague. Therefore, I do not use the term. Notice that I didn't. I am a John Locke Natural Law advocate, and do not pretend to impose anything other than sincere interest in what is right.
September 30, 2007
8:12 PM
Anonymous writes:
uncle raisin maybe you could tell us why you think justice and morals do not exist without 'divine' influence
October 1, 2007
10:49 AM
Uncle Raisin writes:
I'd be happy to...
Without a Divine Judge, whatever is right in your own eyes is right if you have a big enough club. If I am the recipient of the fall out from such actions, too bad for me (until my club is bigger). Right and wrong, justice and injustice, are irrational concepts without a Divine. Upon what would it be based without a Divine?
Uncle Raisin
www.UncleRaisin.com
"Raisin" the standard against injustice
October 1, 2007
11:01 AM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
Dirk,
The point is that I don't want the government to mirror the behavior of the private sector. That is part of the problem. The government is there to do things that don't fit well in a private sector model.
I have been reading up on RTDs Fastrack program and it appears to me that many transit agencies are waking up to the fact that while the government needs to oversee things like transit agencies, the private sector can run the actual service more efficiently than a public agency can.
I think that same can be said for educational institutions. While government may need to have a financial and oversight role, the actual running of the institutions should be by private enterprise. I don't care how important football is to Notre Dame, I just don't want my tax dollars going to support football programs at publicly funded institutions.
October 1, 2007
11:13 AM
Anonymous writes:
you do not trust yourself to do the right thing without fear of eternal hellfire and damnation
do not imply that every one needs such fatalistic motivations to act like a civil human being
October 1, 2007
12:30 PM
PJ48B writes:
For those of you that do not believe in God, I hope you will be very happy wondering around in whatever place people go that die and do not believe in heaven. I for one, am hoping for a better place that here on earth cause if this is a good as it gets, it is going to be hell o matter where else we go. And remember,,, Christmas, Easter, Good Friday and any other religious day, including Sunday, is not a day of rest of a nonbeliever. You should be working, attending school or whatever. Actually I pity you nonbelievers because yo have nothing to look forward to when you die.
October 1, 2007
1:02 PM
just sayin' writes:
And remember,,, Christmas, Easter, Good Friday and any other religious day, including Sunday, is not a day of rest of a nonbeliever. You should be working, attending school or whatever. Actually I pity you nonbelievers because yo have nothing to look forward to when you die.
Posted by PJ48B
Now there is a good reason to go to church. Here I thought it was just to be told who it is OK to hate.
October 1, 2007
1:04 PM
jay writes:
You betcha...I'm absolutely down with my ghost partying in the clouds with the skydaddy forever and ever...just as long as there are no gay people or muslims up there.
October 1, 2007
1:15 PM
JMH writes:
Bravo to these kids. I think the Pledge should be taken out of our schools all together. If some kids want to say it, have them meet up after school and do so if they wish. But making kids feel unconfortable in a public school saying a "pledge" to some God they may or may not believe in is wrong. Nevermind it has no real use anyway...
As far as all the religious nuts out there, who are so sure in thier rightousness, I will just say this... GET YOUR GOD OUT OF MY FACE !!! Just because you believe in some invisable man in the sky and a bunch of fairy tales, doesn't mean the rest of us have to as well... The arrogance of some religious people is just amazing. How do you know your religion is right. There have been literally millions of religions over the years... but only YOURS is the right one and everyone else is wrong huh?
Someting to ponder... Does anyone know the difference between a religion and a cult? A cult becomes a "religion" when it has more than 1 million members. That is it...
October 1, 2007
1:39 PM
Observer writes:
I'd rather have God in our schools than the decay from misplaced liberal ideology.
October 1, 2007
1:49 PM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
JHM,
There is certainly much about religion which a person could react negatively about. Here is what the Bible says about religion:
Jas 1:27 This is pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father, to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
No one should ever coerce another person in anyway with their religious belief. Jesus NEVER forced his belief on another person. He was always ready to talk about it, but never engaged in any coercion of any kind. So anytime you see coercion you can be assured it is not biblical, and it is not Christian.
October 1, 2007
1:59 PM
Anonymous writes:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5708717,00.html
I guess KW is probably in court today.
October 1, 2007
2:20 PM
Anonymous writes:
Oops... I mean't JW.
October 1, 2007
2:39 PM
Michael writes:
"But making kids feel unconfortable in a public school saying a "pledge" to some God..." - JMH
Since when is the Pledge of Allegiance being made to 'some God'? Last I heard it was a pledge to 'the flag of The United States of America and to the Republic FOR WHICH IT STANDS'. The flag stands and flies as a SYMBOL of the United States of America. No one is asking anyone to pledge allegiance to any God or any religion of any kind. If these idiot kids and their supporters on this blog would read the Declaration of Independence they would know that though no ONE religion or God is mandated as the sole one for the USA, it is obvious and apparent that the Founding Fathers believed strongly that ALL our unalienable RIGHTS are passed to us from our Creator - not given to us by any government. How anyone can take offense at that is beyond me. I know the words "under God" were added in 1954 to distinguish the USA from our Godless heathen enemies in the USSR and China - so maybe these kids should also be taught about the 10s of MILLIONS of people that were slaughtered under Stalin and Mao and why President Dwight D. Eisenhower (who freed all of Europe from Hitler) thought it appropriate to separate the USA from those nations by our belief in a Creator - whatever religion you might believe in.
October 1, 2007
2:58 PM
Anonymous writes:
JMH is ungrateful, intolerant and narrowminded.
October 1, 2007
3:26 PM
jay writes:
Michael, I guess it worked. God favored us over Russia. Can we take it out of the pledge now?
October 1, 2007
5:13 PM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
I pledge allegiance to the academics and to their collective for which they stand, one nation under their complete control, inescapable, with license and immunity for all leftists.
October 2, 2007
6:06 AM
Uncle Raisin writes:
You presume so much! Forget fear of punishment or hope of gain for a moment and tell me what the concept of justice & injustice, right & wrong, or truth can be based on if not something, someone, or other, that both transcends and is of greater intrinsic value than we are? Your philosophy reduces to pragmatism.
Uncle Raisin
www.UncleRaisin.com
"Raisin" the standard against injustice
October 2, 2007
6:34 AM
Michael writes:
"Saying the Pledge of Allegiance isn't mandatory at Boulder High School, but some students don't even want to hear it."
This statement reflects in a nutshell the total lack of tolerance and acceptance of OTHER people's right to free speech, freedom of choice and expression, and freedom OF religion by the left wing in America today. What they do not want to even hear must be forbidden and banished - regardless if it infringes on the rights of others as long as these idiots can live in a world where they do not have to see or hear anything they do not approve of.
October 2, 2007
9:26 AM
JMH writes:
No one should ever coerce another person in anyway with their religious belief. Jesus NEVER forced his belief on another person. He was always ready to talk about it, but never engaged in any coercion of any kind. So anytime you see coercion you can be assured it is not biblical, and it is not Christian. - Hogar
Once again we agree... 2 days in a row!!! Nice to see my brother... because this is all I was saying... I respect anyone's religious beliefs, they just need to respect mine and others as well...
MIcheal... I was just saying the pledge is unnessicary and putting God into this pledge makes this a religious issue. Take out the religious references and go back to the origianal pledge and I wouldn't be that upset about it. Though I feel it is unnessisary. Most Americans (left and right) love this country, some "pledge" isn't going to change that or make anyone a "better American".
This one makes me laugh: "JMH is ungrateful, intolerant and narrowminded." - ?
How am I ungrateful? That one perplexes me. Intolerant? I said I have said numerous times that someone's religion is thier own business and I have no problem with anyone believing in what they want, just don't push it on me. So maybe I am intolerant, intolerant of religious people pushing their god, etc. on myself. I said in the post I wrote "If some kids want to say it, have them meet up after school and do so if they wish." Wow, sounds real intolerant to me... and narrowminded? Why because I don't want to join in your "invisable man in the sky club"? I make my decisions on facts, you want to make yours on the Bible, etc. that is your choice, but don't think because I don't want to think in your "box" with that I am narrow minded. That just cracks me up...
October 2, 2007
10:04 AM
Hypocracy has no end with the right writes:
"This statement reflects in a nutshell the total lack of tolerance and acceptance of OTHER people's right to free speech, freedom of choice and expression, and freedom OF religion by the left wing in America today. What they do not want to even hear must be forbidden and banished - regardless if it infringes on the rights of others as long as these idiots can live in a world where they do not have to see or hear anything they do not approve of." - Micheal
Unless of course the speech is "F*CK BUSH" then you all hyperventalate... or maybe saying a general is lying to us... then the shoe is on teh other foot huh?