November 7, 2007 11:48 AM

Stephanie Losee and Helaine Olen, authors of "Office Mate: The Employee Handbook for Finding - and Managing - Romance on the Job"

Mark_Wolf Welcome Stephanie Losee and Helaine Olen, authors of Office Mate: The Employee Handbook for Finding – and Managing – Romance on the Job.
Stephanie_Losee Hi Mark
Helaine_Olen Hi Mark
Stephanie_Losee Thank you for having us on
Mark_Wolf For starters, why do you think the office is such fertile ground for relationships?
Helaine_Olen We believe the office has become the village of the 21st century.
Stephanie_Losee We find that the workplace is the village of the 21st century
Stephanie_Losee ha!
Stephanie_Losee Go Helaine
Helaine_Olen A hundred years ago, we lived in small communities where everyone was known to one another.
Helaine_Olen We no longer live that way.
Stephanie_Losee Remember that Robert Putnam book "Bowling Alone"
Stephanie_Losee It was about how important the neighborhood is to our happiness and health.
Stephanie_Losee The new neighborhood is the office.
Helaine_Olen Right, and studies also show people have less outside friendships than ever before.
Stephanie_Losee You're around each other physically, and you create a modern version of the olde time village.
Stephanie_Losee We don't have time anymore to have much of a life outside work, so we live our lives at the office.
Helaine_Olen People are known to one another, have a reputation and reason to be on good behavior.
Stephanie_Losee You spend your days there, make your friends there, and nowadays find a mate there.

Mark_Wolf Helaine, you write that you and your husband likely wouldn’t have connected had you read each other’s online dating profiles or met at a bar. Does working in the same office give people a second/third look at people they might have brushed off had they met in other settings?
Helaine_Olen Definately. We get to know one another over time. And that's key. So, to take my case, I can't stand baseball and my husband would rather not talk about politics. But we both share similar senses of humor and love of literature. I'm not sure we would have figured that out in a bar or even online.
Stephanie_Losee You get so much exposure to someone at the office that you're forced to find out who they really are. You don't reject them because you don't think you have so much in common on the surface.

Mark_Wolf Both of you met your husbands in media environments. I look around our newsroom and I see three married couples and two more women who are married to guys who no longer work here (having nothing to do with their romances). This in a newsroom of roughly 200 people. Do you think we’re typical?
Helaine_Olen Yes, media is considered a particularly friendly environment for office romance.
Stephanie_Losee But these relationships are happening in every single industry we researched.
Helaine_Olen Though, I should add if there is a flourescent lightbulb, you can usually count on the fact that there is at least one office romance going on. It is that common.

Mark_Wolf Why and when do you think the stigma against office romance begin to subside?
Stephanie_Losee I think when everyone is engaging in a behavior, the stigma must lessen.
Stephanie_Losee Office romance is the taboo that wasn't.
Stephanie_Losee What's taboo is talking about it.
Helaine_Olen I think a number of factors kicked in. First, it was always going on. Second, as the feminist movement matured, women saw themselves as more equal and less vulnerable and I think that began to allow people to be more open about romance on the job.

Mark_Wolf Do you think – and did the people you interviewed think - women are more at risk of negative career consequences if an office romance goes bad?
Helaine_Olen I dont think it is viewed negatively in general, but women can be more at risk.
Helaine_Olen There is a study showing that men who date in the office are viewed more favorably than women.
Stephanie_Losee In a survey in which people dated someone who was their boss or underling, women were less likely to feel the relationship helped their careers.
Stephanie_Losee Right Helaine?
Helaine_Olen Yes, that is another study. Men think dating the boss helps their career prospects!

doubled Thanks Mark, Hello Helaine and Staphanie. No questions really and have not read your book. I did however meet my wife in the office and we've been married for almost 12 years now. We worked for about a year together after our marriage but I don't think we'd want to work together again. Is this normal?
Stephanie_Losee Just because you met at work doesn't mean you want to work together forever.
Helaine_Olen Yes, it is quite normal. Surveys show that about 5% of couples stay together in the office for the long haul.
Stephanie_Losee Lots of people feel they bring their work home a little too much; office couples must be even more careful to avoid it.
Helaine_Olen I can totally understand. At some point, you would probably want some separation!
Helaine_Olen We interviewed someone for the book who spent two years sitting between a married couple at a tech company. It was not a pleasant experience for him.
Stephanie_Losee But it can provide an opportunity. If you don't want to keep working together, it can give one of you the kick you need to explore a work opportunity you wouldn't have done otherwise.
doubled yes! I am so glad she is somewhere else. We have nice conversations about each others' days.
Helaine_Olen Of course, it might have helped if the same couple did not sit ten feet from one another. The same pod did seem a bit extreme.
Stephanie_Losee In our book we suggest people be open to finding love in the workplace. But once they find that relationship, keep it outside!
Helaine_Olen How long did you continue to work together after you began your relationship?
doubled 1 year
Helaine_Olen How did you feel it went?
doubled well actually almost 2
doubled 1 year after we were married
Stephanie_Losee Was your workplace receptive?
doubled did not like bringing home life into work
doubled they were very cool
doubled very liberal office
Stephanie_Losee That's the big secret nobody tells you. It happens everywhere, so almost all offices are receptive nowadays.

Mark_Wolf That exchange brings up this question: At what point in the relationship does the boss need to know?
Stephanie_Losee In some cases never.
Helaine_Olen Depends on the company.
doubled does it depend on the capacity and the roles of each others' careers?
Helaine_Olen I would suggest checking into your office policies on the subject.
Stephanie_Losee You have to determine if your emotional relationship causes a conflict of interest for your company. In that case you must always disclose.
Helaine_Olen But, remember, 70% of all firms have no policy at all!
Stephanie_Losee Totally true.
Stephanie_Losee The number of companies with policies is actually falling.

Mark_Wolf But even at firms with no policies, is it a good idea to let your boss know?
Helaine_Olen Again, it just depends. I think situations are so varied that it really comes down to the culture, receptivity, conflicts of interest, and your own comfort level with going public or staying private.
Stephanie_Losee When everybody knows but your boss, and your boss hears it from someone else, that doesn't work well. But if you're keeping a secret from everyone and there's no conflict, I wouldn't say you have to tell your boss.

Mark_Wolf If only all love lasted forever… Is there a good way to handle a breakup with a colleague?
Helaine_Olen We do have suggestions in the book.
Stephanie_Losee The best way to handle the breakup is before the breakup
Helaine_Olen I totally agree with Stephanie. Second, take the high ground.
doubled witnesseed some harsh breakups in the office. not good.
Stephanie_Losee And remember, in every situation of your life the only person's behavior you can control is your own.
Helaine_Olen Third, keep it out of the office. Don't talk to your collegues about it, for god's sake.
doubled seems like a policy aorund that would be bennificial
Helaine_Olen Doubled, I think we all have.
Stephanie_Losee When an ex won't let go, it can fall under the umbrella of harassment
Stephanie_Losee And then HR has to get involved.
Helaine_Olen And the thinking of many management consutlants these days is that management needs to pay more attention to how to handle break-ups. That causes more disruption than just dating -- no surprise, there.
doubled agreed Helaine
doubled Thanks for your time, will pick up your book and read with my wife, thanks again!
Helaine_Olen Thank you. And tell your single friends about it!
Stephanie_Losee Research shows that productivity actually rises when a couple couples. The oly time it falls is in the initial period after the breakup.
Helaine_Olen Good chatting with you.

Mark_Wolf The thorniest situation to navigate seems to be when one person's status at the company is higher than the other's. What do you advise about romance with the boss or the underling?
Helaine_Olen Be very careful.
Stephanie_Losee It better be True Love.
Helaine_Olen We say to be on your best behavior. And you cannot, cannot use the relationship for personal gain.
Helaine_Olen Stephanie's right. And we'd also recommend trying to get a different boss or subordinate real fast.
Stephanie_Losee We have more suggestions in the book, but one is to make sure to maintain your friendship with the office gang.
Helaine_Olen One thing some companies are now doing is making the person in the higher position report the relationship. This way the onus is on them to be on good behavior.

Mark_Wolf What's the concept of an "Office Spouse"?
Helaine_Olen They are a work wife or husband.
Helaine_Olen Essentially, it is a platonic friendship.
Stephanie_Losee The Office Spouse is the only office romance area in which Helaine and I have opposing views.
Helaine_Olen You go out to lunch together, confide in one another, and are generally seen as a team.

Mark_Wolf Are Pam and Jim the best media ‘Office’ couple. They fought their attraction, became estranged, and then fell into each other’s arms. But even they tried to keep it a secret.
Helaine_Olen I think they are the great example right now. There's also a few couples on Dancing with the stars that have fallen in love. And on Survivor.
Stephanie_Losee You see? My view is that there is no such thing as a platonic office spouse. One or the other party always wants it to turn romantic.
Helaine_Olen Yeah, but they are a tv show, stephanie.
Stephanie_Losee I know!
Stephanie_Losee Just using them as an example.
Helaine_Olen I know.

Mark_Wolf You advice keeping things quiet. But does that ever work? One of our office couples had their picture together flashed on the scoreboard at a Colorado Rockies game.
Helaine_Olen That's really funny!
Stephanie_Losee You can easily keep it quiet long enough to find out if it's serious.
Helaine_Olen We do say that just because you think you are keeping a secret, it doesn't mean you are.
Stephanie_Losee After a point it's fairly tough.
Helaine_Olen I agree with Stephanie. We do know some who kept it quiet, but most got found out eventually.
Stephanie_Losee More often we heard examples of couples who were platonic and their office gang thought they were involved anyway.
Helaine_Olen And if I were trying to keep it quiet, I wouldnt go to a place where you might run into 20,000 people.

Mark_Wolf By the way, Stephanie, every therapist I've ever spoken to says the "office spouse" even if platonic is the most toxic relationship a husband/wife can have in terms of danger to a marriage.
Helaine_Olen We do say that if your real-life spouse objects, no office spouse.
Helaine_Olen Also, many people with office spouses don't have real life spouses.
Stephanie_Losee Yes, that's one of my many concerns. But as Helaine rightly points out, when the office spouse relationship is done right, it can be a tremendous career advantage

Mark_Wolf What are some of the most common mistakes dating workers make?
Stephanie_Losee EMAIL!!
Stephanie_Losee Oh, and EMAIL!!
Helaine_Olen I think we have to remember that 20somethings today are used to hanging out in groups, and with the opposite sex and truly see these relationships differently than boomers.
Helaine_Olen Email, IM, and I did I say Email?
Helaine_Olen Also, involving fellow members of the office gang in the saga.
Helaine_Olen You can't confide in your co-workers.
Stephanie_Losee And asking a co-worker to tell someone that you're interested, as if we're still in junior high.

Mark_Wolf When it goes bad, do you find people's first inclination is to quit their job?
Stephanie_Losee Actually, no.
Stephanie_Losee They usually ride it out. I did.
Helaine_Olen Most people stick it out.
Stephanie_Losee Not with my husband, of course. I had a breakup with another guy in the office and he went a little berserk.
Helaine_Olen I would say we forget in all these discussions that people dating in the office are adults. And most adults can generally be trusted to behave with some degree of maturity.
Stephanie_Losee Yes, the bad stories are always the exception, which is what makes them so memorable.

Mark_Wolf How do you handle working next to the ex?
Helaine_Olen Oh, I'm a newspaper gal. I once worked next to a couple who divorced and stayed on the job.
Helaine_Olen Keep the relationship professional.
Helaine_Olen No confrontations in the office. No confiding in co-workers.
Stephanie_Losee And if the ex is your boss, don't stay friends.
Stephanie_Losee Don't tell him you're not going to stay friends, just don't stay friends. Be courteous and friendly, but not friends.

Mark_Wolf Did you run onto any serial office daters?
Stephanie_Losee You mean, like me?
Helaine_Olen Yes, and we can plead guilty to this too. It's not that big of a deal.
Stephanie_Losee Yes, we actually ran into more people who kissed more than one frog than hadn't.
Helaine_Olen As one of our sources told us, "if i didn't date people on the job, I wouldn't get a date."
Stephanie_Losee Ain't it the truth.
Stephanie_Losee We're Gen Xers. Gen Yers take it even more for granted than we do.
Helaine_Olen Office romance really is part of the work-life balance discussion. Sounds odd, but it is true.
Stephanie_Losee I don't think anything you say sounds odd.
Helaine_Olen I mean, on one level it is extremely offensive to tell people that they can't date someone because they happen to take a paycheck from the same folks.
Stephanie_Losee It's an inappropriate level of control to leverage.

Mark_Wolf How do you tell someone at the office you're interested in them?
Helaine_Olen Try to tell them outside the office.
Stephanie_Losee Don't be coy. Be direct, but subtle. Make it clear you will take no for an answer.
Helaine_Olen We give a lot of specific tips in the book on how to do this.
Helaine_Olen I mean, you don't want to be overheard -- especially if the answer is no!
Stephanie_Losee Drinks after work on Friday night always provides a nice oppty.

Mark_Wolf You write in the book that office romances aren't just for younger people.
Stephanie_Losee We just profiled an SF couple who are 52 and 56 and found each other at Schwab.
Stephanie_Losee The numbers of people who dated someone at work aren't any different if the respondent is 25 or 64.
Helaine_Olen Very true.
Helaine_Olen Remember, the baby boomers dated at work. They just didn't talk about it!
Stephanie_Losee Meeting at work provides a real oppty for older women who have run through their friends' fixups and come up empty.

Mark_Wolf Did you find that workers who are romantically involved are actually more productive?
Stephanie_Losee That's what the surveys say.
Helaine_Olen Studies say yes.
Mark_Wolf Why do you think that is?
Stephanie_Losee It makes sense. You've got that buzz and you're excited to go to work. It translates into working harder and better.
Helaine_Olen It seems that's a good way to get people excited about their work, the job, etc.
Stephanie_Losee Your commitment to the company increases.
Helaine_Olen Remember, if you date at work, your company was the matchmaker
Stephanie_Losee And now the company pays both your rents!
Stephanie_Losee You're inclined to do right by them!

Mark_Wolf Thanks to both of you for writing a book that's both funny and wise. And thanks for joining us today. Any final thoughts?
Stephanie_Losee Be ye not afraid
Stephanie_Losee Lose your heart, not your paycheck.
Helaine_Olen Remember, office dating is successful. Half of all of us will do it, and one in five who do it will end up in a long term relationship with their office mate.