May 13, 2008 8:39 AM
Should police impound cars of unlicensed drivers?
Denver police officers would be required to impound the cars of unlicensed drivers under a measure aimed at illegal immigrants that is likely to appear on the August ballot.
Daniel J. Chacon reports:
The City Council voted 9-3 on first reading Monday to refer the initiative to voters. It is up for a second reading next week.The three who voted in opposition - Rick Garcia, Chris Nevitt and Judy Montero - violated the city charter in the process.
By charter, the council has only two options when dealing with a citizen's initiative: refer it to voters or adopt it by ordinance.
Montero said she couldn't vote any other way because the proposal goes against her moral conscience.
"I feel so strongly because I feel that the intent is unfair," she said. "The intent is to target a certain group of people and I think that that is inherently wrong."
Some of the other council members who voted in favor shared a similar sentiment but said they had no other choice.
The Rocky's editorial says the ordinance should never become part of Denver's code.
Under one headline-grabbing section of the proposal, police must impound the vehicles of suspected illegal immigrants unless the drivers can prove they're in this country legally. And who, pray tell, should police suspect as illegal? Any motorist carrying a foreign driver's license. Unless those drivers can prove they're here legally, the vehicle must be impounded.This is a clumsy attempt to use local cops to enforce federal immigration law, and it will end up harassing tourists and other legal visitors. The Denver Municipal Code is the wrong place to do this.
Besides, you would think an ordinance stating that "illegal aliens . . . pose a significant danger to the people" would require police to detain these suspected lawbreakers, or even report them to federal authorities. It doesn't. It just confiscates their cars.
Another, less-publicized section is even more sweeping. It forces police to impound the vehicle of every driver - not just suspected illegal immigrants - who cannot present a valid license. So the harried dad taking his kids to softball practice who left his wallet at home faces the same penalty as the raging drunk careening down Interstate 25.
Police officers should be trusted to decide who poses the greater public danger; this ordinance overrides those judgment calls.
May 13, 2008
9:06 AM
Bev writes:
VOTE YES VOTE YES VOTE YES!!!
Montero has a moral conscience? That's news all in itself.
Deport illegals. They are here illegally and have no rights.
May 13, 2008
9:18 AM
Anonymous writes:
More feel-good, POS legislation designed to placate the bigots who populate America today.
Leave guest workers alone! They are here to help us, and deserve to keep their cars! Get to know some guest workers, and you will find that they are funny, intellectual people who contribute much. We all should be so lucky to live in a world of variety and diversity.
May 13, 2008
9:20 AM
Bev's picture writes:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/dayinpictures?o=4&f=/g/a/2008/05/02/dip.DTL&type=dayinpictures
May 13, 2008
9:21 AM
Steve M. writes:
I support the three members of city council who refused to vote on this shameful proposal. Right wingers like Tom Tancredo and his buddy Rush Limbaugh have gotten us all riled up on Colorado regarding illegal immigrants. If we had programs to embrace these people, welcome them to our country, educate them, and help them transition to our culture, we might find they rather add more than they detract. We are now spending way too much money, time, and resources toward the opposite (just trying to get rid of them). Therefore they become a drain on public resources rather than viable local tax payers and working members of our society and community. If we embraced immigrants, it would be a lot easier to have standard expectations of them. We could require fluency in English, we could require legal employment (tax-paying as opposed to under the table jobs). We need multi-lingual citizens who can better communicate with tourists etc. For example, Spanish-speaking Flight Attendants are a bonus on flights to Central and South America. It's always interesting when you turn a perceived problem or challenge upside down and look at the benefits. We are constantly fed junk by these right wingers who didn't even listen to their self-anointed President on this matter--recall that W. Bush was not in favor of all this anti-immigration stuff. Well, I don't agree with him on much, but I did on this one. This was a nation built on the shoulders and backs and ingenuity of immigrants. From the very first colonizers to Albert Einstein who made it possible for us to end WWII. There are not European Americans alive in this country who did not descent from immigrants or immigrate directly. Time to get over this right wing propaganda and move on to looking at the problem from the opposite angle. Let's immediately begin Welcome to Colorado programs. Let's get the children in school. let's get the parents on the books and into English classes. Let's spend all the money we are currently spending on keeping people out, on building societal infrastructure to engage and foster these people into becoming vibrant members of our melting-pot enjoyed by our ancestors back in the days of a flourishing Ellis Island when 1/3 or the population of Sweden immigrated to the United States in hopes of a better life, for example. Immigrants need to have places to live, shop, etc. Once fully integrated into our state's culture and economy all of the 'problems' we claim they bring would melt away. The biggest claims against them: they don't pay taxes (they'd be paying taxes), they don't learn English (they'd be learning English), their kids are a drain on public schools because they don't speak English and their parents don't pay taxes (already solved), they are a drain on the social services department (they would be paying taxes, have legal jobs with legal insurance, and, therefore, solve that problem). There is always more than one solution to a problem. We can continue to choose the one that hasn't been working--trying to keep the people out, building a fence, hiring more border agents, and on and on, or we could turn the problem into a solution. Our economy is sagging partly because our national population is aging. Our population will actually go down in the enxt 30 years as teh baby boomers move on to a different plane of existence. We worked so hard to control the birth rate, we need more people. We need to welcome and embrace immigrants which bring with them new ideas, new perspectives, and want to immigrate to be a part of what they perceive to be a better way of life.
May 13, 2008
9:25 AM
Anonymous writes:
"I feel so strongly because I feel that the intent is unfair," she said. "The intent is to target a certain group of people and I think that that is inherently wrong."
Excuse me, when is it wrong to target illegal immigrants??
May 13, 2008
9:27 AM
Anonymous writes:
"I feel so strongly because I feel that the intent is unfair," she said. "The intent is to target a certain group of people and I think that that is inherently wrong."
Excuse me, when is it wrong to target illegal immigrants??
May 13, 2008
9:30 AM
Anonymous writes:
Vote YES.
Laws are Laws.
Illegals are breaking the Laws by just being here.
If they are driving w/o a license that is strike two.
Report and Deport.
May 13, 2008
9:34 AM
Denverite writes:
Stevo-
Everything is just dandy in your backyard. Good, now move over to 8th and Kalamath and say hello to your new neighbors. Feel free to park your Lexus out in the street too- no problems there either. It's a nice neighborhood, I've been told people don't even lock their doors. Get back to us in 3 months doo gooder.
May 13, 2008
9:35 AM
Karl Childers writes:
Social issues aside, this is typical of Denver City Council. They have their minds made up in advance and the rules/laws be damned. Their only priority is their own political advancement. It doesn't surprise me that some would violate their own charter to make a political stand.
May 13, 2008
9:50 AM
Anonymous writes:
Denverite - You are obviously a bigot who brings on all of your own problems becuase of your negative attitude. Get out of your narrow minded thinking and begin to realize that we as a people are all connected. Your immigrant neighbors are a hardworking people who deserve all of the benefits that you do. We should be striving to build bridges, not walls.
May 13, 2008
9:58 AM
The_Punnisher writes:
( sung to Feliz Navidad )
Police stopped my car, Police stopped my car
The police made me stop, walk a straight line and blow a balloon up
Police stopped my car, Police stopped my car
The police made me stop, walk a straight line and blow a balloon up
They wanna wish me a sober Christmas
That's why they always pull me over Christmas
They say they're just making sure
That there's no open bottles in my car
They wanna wish me a sober Christmas
That's why they always pull me over Christmas
They say they're just making sure
That there's no open bottles in my car
Police road block, Police road block,
Police road block
I can smell their donuts as they smell my breath
Police road block, Police road block,
Police road block
I can smell their donuts as they smell my breath
They wanna wish me a sober Christmas
That's why they always pull me over Christmas
They're gonna let me out on bail this Christmas
From the bottom of their hearts
Police locked me up, Police locked me up,
The Police locked me up, 'cause when I blew, I blew a three point one
-Bob Rivers
May 13, 2008
10:03 AM
Anonymous writes:
9:50
Sure, I'll get on it. Connected. Good one. Connected like Iran-Israel-Iraq-Palestine. No violence there. No violence with Mexican gangs in Aurora and Denver either. Grass is green in your backyard tool.
May 13, 2008
10:08 AM
Audios Amigos writes:
Steve we have tried your suggestions on 30 million illegals and they still refuse to learn English and educate themselves. They bankrupt Hospitals and strain our Schools.
They bring drugs and disease with them.
They bring down wages so the average American cannot support his family.
They make parts of America look like a impoverished third world Country.
Enough is enough.
Report and Deport...it's our duty as true Americans.
T
May 13, 2008
10:15 AM
Anonymous writes:
Vote YES!! We should dance on the streets of Denver if this passes!!!
May 13, 2008
10:20 AM
Anonymous writes:
Looks like the liberals are the bigots on this one. Who ever said this was designed for illegals? I know all kinds of white people that drive without a license, a lot of black as well. I also a few gays who are doing it. Any one who is driving without a license should have their car impounded. Who the hell do you dolts think you are to subject the rest of society to people without license, insurance so when they hit our car or god forbid our children they have wheels to run away on? Hell yes this should be law. If they are so freaking hard working taking the dam bus like the rest of have to when our licesne gets suspended, etc should not be a problem. Idiot loony lefties, smoking must be banned so you dont have to smell it, but everyone has to be subjected to people without a license and insurance on the road cause you moron lefties never leave your neighborhood????????
Its the freaking law that you must have a license to drive, no ifs ands or butts. Your car should be towed away and you forced to walk if you are dumb enough to get behind the wheel without a license. Why on earth should you be allowed to be ticketed and drive away when you dont have a damn license to begin with?
May 13, 2008
10:32 AM
citizen writes:
This is theft plain and simple and any city official that supports this deserves a jail sentence.
May 13, 2008
10:34 AM
JMH writes:
While I am definitly for stopping the flow of illegals into this country, I'm not sure this is a good idea for all of the reasons stated in the Rocky's editorial above.
I will maintain the best way to stop the flow of illegal immigrants is to dry up the available jobs. Fine and even jail employeers that hire illegal immigrants. That would do the trick, the rest of this is nothing but "feel good" legislation to make it look like they are doing something about the problem, but they really aren't.
I don't blame these people for coming here. If I were in their position, I would do the same. But if there are no jobs available for them, they wont come. No reason to. But now the problem is getting all the corporate bought politicians to actually go after LAWBREAKING employers! Why is it "illegal" for the immigrants but not for the employeers who hire them? They are breaking the law as well...
May 13, 2008
10:37 AM
jay writes:
i'll be glad if it goes on the ballot. i'd personally like to see it there as i think it would be pretty interesting to find out how the state's citizens would vote on it.
May 13, 2008
10:39 AM
just sayin' writes:
True that JMH. The whole illegal immigrant issue should be laid squarely on the employers. Make it so they will have substantial fines and jail time and no one comes here without the promise of a job.
May 13, 2008
10:40 AM
Zoo keeper writes:
This is enforcement of current laws. Sounds like a great business opportunity for towing companies.
and its a public service too.
Licenses are revoked by folks driving drunk, road rage. Some of them won't bother to get insurance either. Its not just illegals but animals like sasquach. They should not let animals get drivers licenses.
May 13, 2008
10:44 AM
SASQUATCH writes:
Last I heard the car is private property that can be owned without a driver's license. That's the law. And that same car can not be legally driven by anyone (illegal alien or 5th generation American) without a license. That's the law. Doing some apples to oranges analysis and confusing and mixing the illegal/legal issues will never bring you to the right conclusion.
May 13, 2008
10:54 AM
David Hakala writes:
I wonder where we're going to put all those impounded cars?
May 13, 2008
10:55 AM
L.Moore writes:
If you don't have a valid license you should not be on the road period! This applies to immigrants and residents alike. Just think about how many people are driving without a license and are also driving without insurance? How many hit and run accidents do you read or hear about? Maybe this will help reduce these numbers as well. This new law would apply to ALL people not just immigrants and therefore should be approved.
May 13, 2008
10:57 AM
L.Moore writes:
If you don't have a valid license you should not be on the road period! This applies to immigrants and residents alike. Just think about how many people are driving without a license and are also driving without insurance? How many hit and run accidents do you read or hear about? Maybe this will help reduce these numbers as well. This new law would apply to ALL people not just immigrants and therefore should be approved.
May 13, 2008
11:00 AM
LMoore writes:
If you don't have a valid license you should not be on the road period! This applies to immigrants and residents alike. Just think about how many people are driving without a license and are also driving without insurance? How many hit and run accidents do you read or hear about? Maybe this will help reduce these numbers as well. This new law would apply to ALL people not just immigrants and therefore should be approved.
May 13, 2008
11:02 AM
Liberal Man writes:
Laws are just little inconveniences is all.
Especially when they go against my personal agendas.
May 13, 2008
11:09 AM
Anonymous writes:
This is why the world hates the U.S. Some countries don't even want free aid in a disaster . When will some people wake up ? I am happy to see the haters are getting less and less . This topic would have hundreds of comments . There are only a few . Vote no .
May 13, 2008
11:12 AM
Anonymous writes:
This is why the world hates the U.S. Some countries don't even want free aid in a disaster . When will some people wake up ? I am happy to see the haters are getting less and less . This topic would have hundreds of comments . There are only a few . Vote no . Thank you Mrs Montero and the other 2 council members for voting the way you did . If more elected officials would do this we would not be in places like Iraq .
May 13, 2008
11:13 AM
artstarzz writes:
This is why the world hates the U.S. Some countries don't even want free aid in a disaster . When will some people wake up ? I am happy to see the haters are getting less and less . This topic would have hundreds of comments . There are only a few . Vote no . Thank you Mrs Montero and the other 2 council members for voting the way you did . If more elected officials would do this we would not be in places like Iraq .
May 13, 2008
11:13 AM
artstarzz writes:
This is why the world hates the U.S. Some countries don't even want free aid in a disaster . When will some people wake up ? I am happy to see the haters are getting less and less . This topic would have hundreds of comments . There are only a few . Vote no . Thank you Mrs Montero and the other 2 council members for voting the way you did . If more elected officials would do this we would not be in places like Iraq .
May 13, 2008
11:16 AM
Anonymous writes:
his is why the world hates the U.S. Some countries don't even want free aid in a disaster . When will some people wake up ? I am happy to see the haters are getting less and less . This topic would have hundreds of comments . There are only a few . Vote no . Thank you Mrs Montero and the other 2 council members for voting the way you did . If more elected officials would do this we would not be in places like Iraq .
May 13, 2008
11:18 AM
Karl Childers writes:
The language in this ordinance aimed at undocumented immigrants is just plain bad. The federal government has abdicated its responsibility in enforcing immigration. Local ordinances and laws aimed at regulating or discouraging immigration are unenforceable because local officials have no jurisdiction. We see it all the time. Undocumented people are arrested and processed for local infractions, turned over to federal authorities (ICE), and then put right back out into society instead of being properly deported. Blame the US administration for this situation not city council or state government. Write your US representative and senator and let them know how unacceptable this situation is.
May 13, 2008
11:25 AM
Anonymous writes:
Karl,
We don't call them undocumented.
We call them what they are and that is Illegal immigrants or illegal aliens.
Most of them have documents albeit they are stolen documents.
May 13, 2008
11:32 AM
JMH writes:
I wonder where we're going to put all those impounded cars?
Posted by David Hakala on May 13, 2008 10:54 AM
Good question Devid and one that needs to be addressed. It costs money to impound and store cars. Are all you conservatives out ther ready to pay more in taxes to pay for it?
As far as storage itself... In NYC a few years ago, the police were doing this with drunken drivers. What happened is, eventually they had no more space to put the cars and ended up stopping the program as costs skyrocketed and space was filled up. Just something to consider...
May 13, 2008
11:49 AM
Peter writes:
Simple solution to the car problem:
Drive the aliens to the border with their car and return it to be donated to a needy family.
Done.
May 13, 2008
11:54 AM
Peter writes:
Simple solution to the car problem:
Drive the aliens to the border with their car and return it to be donated to a needy family. The documents these "undocumented" people hoard can be put neatly in the trunk.
Done.
May 13, 2008
12:02 PM
Anonymous writes:
Another philosophical question
How are the Broncos getting to practice and games?
Most are dui lol
May 13, 2008
12:08 PM
Shelly writes:
Montero's conscious must be hurting into overtime:
Drunk Driving laws are targeting a certain group of people.
Theft laws target a certain group of people.
Murder laws target a certain group of people.
The silliness of her comment reveals her basic misunderstanding that laws punish certain groups because of their BEHAVIOR.
Liberals are so dumb.
May 13, 2008
12:08 PM
Jenna writes:
The cops need to impound illegal aliens and then deport them. They have no business being here.
May 13, 2008
12:14 PM
jb writes:
No license; no insurance. The vehicles od unlicensed drivers should be impounded immediately, rtegardless of ethnic background.
I have no problem with "guest workers;" however, anyone who is driving (citizen, legal, illegal) needs to have a license and insurance coverage. The Uninsured motorists can cause great harm!
May 13, 2008
12:14 PM
Anonymous writes:
Sell the damn cars and use the money to help out ICE and the Border Patrol.
Hell half of them are probably stolen or bought with drug money anyways
That's a no brainer.
May 13, 2008
12:27 PM
Anonymous writes:
Are the loony lefties really this stupid? The city wouldnt fill their lots to full capacity you dipshits. Any car not picked up in 30 days is sent to auction as is you morons. Its not like the cops are going to run out and start rounding anyone up, and over filling the lots. That would mean they have to actually do work. Stupid liberals. No wonder you leftie whack jobs are so dependent on goverment, you cant even think for selves
May 13, 2008
12:33 PM
Ben's Border Street writes:
"Your immigrant neighbors are a hardworking people who deserve all of the benefits that you do." 9:50
Well sure they do, and since they have respected our laws and immigration system to be here legally they DO get the benefits. It is the lazy, disrespectful illegal aliens who feel they don't have to follow our immigration laws and codes,don't fill out the proper paperwork and wait in line like immigrants, that I want gone.
May 13, 2008
12:35 PM
Anonymous writes:
To poster from May 13, 2008 12:27 PM:
How funny, I was thinking along the same wavelength!
May 13, 2008
12:55 PM
Karl Childers writes:
Hey Ben. Do you really think the undocumented immigrants are lazy? Did you ever stop to consider the risk and effort they exert to get here? What do you think motivates them? Is it greed or desperation? You should try to live in Chiapas for a few months.
May 13, 2008
12:56 PM
fyi098 writes:
Impounded cars go for sale at the Denver Auto Auction.
May 13, 2008
1:03 PM
Ben 's Border Street writes:
Karl,
What makes you think all illegal aliens are gainfully employed or work? Have you ever lived in a border town for over 30 years like me?
May 13, 2008
1:05 PM
Anonymous writes:
Well, now we know why Shaggy disappeared so quickly:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/16253874/detail.html
May 13, 2008
1:09 PM
Anonymous writes:
There is no doubt that many illegals who come here do it to better their lives, sadly they break the law and bring a lot of criminal elements with them. This bill does not target illegals it targets people who dont have a license. Get over youselves, many of you dipshit liberals probably lost your license driving drunk so of course you are against it, like all laws you disagree with....Fact is, we have a right to have safe roads with unlicensed drivers losing their cars. Now kindly find a fire to die in leftist dumbshits
May 13, 2008
1:12 PM
fyi098 writes:
Steve M..America's already babysat these illegals..like no other nationality. The Swedes like you talk about ,and people coming in through Ellis Island..none have been a drain like these 30 million.
9:18,
It's not about color but about the rule of law..and the burden of millions. Diversity is wonderful..but this isn't diversity, they have said they intend to take over America remember Aztlan ? How is that 'DIVERSITY" ?
May 13, 2008
2:11 PM
Karl Childers writes:
Ben,
Apparently, living in a border town makes you a labor expert. I'm surprised you weren't aware of the massive demonstrations of workers recently, a great many of whom are undocumented. Did you ever stop to count how many jobs are actually held by undocumented laborers? Do you know what those jobs are? Maybe it would help to stop assuming and start looking at the facts.
May 13, 2008
2:16 PM
jack rogers writes:
Of course you should impound their cars! this is not targeting only illegal immigrants but anyone breaking the law and operating a vehicle without a license.
How does this not make sense?
May 13, 2008
2:28 PM
Wall of Voodoo writes:
I wish I was in Tijuana
Eating barbequed iguana
I'd take requests on the telephone
I'm on a wavelength far from home
I feel a hot wind on my shoulder
I dial it in from south of the border
I hear the talking of the DJ
Can't understand just what does he say?
May 13, 2008
2:31 PM
Ben's Border Street writes:
Karl,
Living in a border town for over 30 years makes me an illegal immigration fraud expert, if I want to be one or not.
May 13, 2008
2:51 PM
CHUCK writes:
This is the dumbest blog ever. There is no way they could impound cars. Cars are private property and come with Auto loans and contracts. They would have to make the car payments for the owner. If that happens, I will loose my license on perpose to get out of my car loan.
May 13, 2008
2:52 PM
JMH writes:
I see the hysteria over illegal immigrants has clouded most people's judgement... The question now is, should we be taking police off the street to act as INS agents and if so, are you NeoCon's ready to raise your taxes to pay for it?
Also on a side note, is anyone else worried about the potential for abuse with this law? Authority figures always tend to abuse more power. Am I the only one who sees a bunch of "police jackings" of citizen's cars for finacial gain if this were to pass? If I forgot my wallet on the table as I head over to the McDonald's real quick, would I lose my car? Never underestimate the governmnet's thirst to make money off of you.
I'm actually suprised at all the conservative's that think this is a good idea. Just another "nanny law" if you ask me, if you take the "illegal immigrant" angle out of it.
May 13, 2008
2:55 PM
just sayin' writes:
we are all driven by our experiences. Illegal or not I support this measure. About 10 years ago an unemployed, unlicensed, uninsured, unwed (very pregnant), white girl from Ft Lupton ran a red light and totalled my car at 6th and Monaco. I had 3 cracked ribs and a bruised heart. Middle of golf season, missed 6 scheduled tournaments over the next 3 months. Cop was a kingsize A-hole. (started not liking cops then too) Bitched at me for getting out of his cruiser, I couldn't breathe and needed an ambulance. So Hell yes, I support this idea.
May 13, 2008
2:57 PM
Anonymous writes:
Chuck - You are a rectal wart. Please stay away from this blog. That crap was not worth reading once, let alone several times.
May 13, 2008
3:22 PM
KW writes:
This is totally ridiculous.
You don't need a drivers license to "own" a car. You only need the license to "operate" the car on "public" thoroughfares.
You don't need a drivers license or a valid license plate to operate a vehicle on private property.
Just another intrusion by the government into our private lives is all this is. I'd prefer a wire tap myself.
May 13, 2008
3:34 PM
Anonymous writes:
You people are idiots, right now when you get a DUI its the officers discretion whether or not its getting towed. Run your mouth, chances are you are picking up your car at the impound lot later, be nice you will probably just need a ride to where it was left. Illeaglly park, its getting towed. How you morons like JHW go off on tin foil hat shit is beyond me, but it further proves you idiots dont have a brain. No wonder you clowns support Obama, he is as clueless as you dolts and believes the same dribble you try to sell on here daily. Get a freaking grip,,dip
May 13, 2008
3:42 PM
Anonymous writes:
Welcome to RTL Live blogging, where our motto is always "Civility is priority One".
May 13, 2008
3:44 PM
Shaggy writes:
Karl,
We aren't talking about immigrants that lost their documents or papers.
We are talking about 30 million or so people here ILLEGALLY turning many parts of America into third world looking Countries.
They are called illegal immigrants.
Bam Bam, you are very paranoid if you think they are going to take your car while you run into McCee Dees.
Wait a minute, wait a minute, I think I hear a black helicopter hovering over your crib right now. Better get yer club out....and...Bam..Bam..them.
May 13, 2008
4:03 PM
Dave Hampton writes:
OK - having been nailed for driving without a license, this is the dumbest set of postings I have seen yet.
This is not about illegals, or people who have forgotten their wallet while running an errand.
If you forget your ID, give the officer all your details; name, DOB, address and they can look it up. It will show them if you legally have a license - Tada! No impound.
Its about people who have lost their license due to various violations and are driving suspended, revoked or cancelled. And about people who have never had a license.
And it causing problems for tourists??? Please! If you are a tourist with a rental car, you needed a valid license to get it - Tada! No impound.
If you are a tourist from a foreign country, it easy to prove you are here legally. There is a stamp on your passport from when you entered the country - Tada! No impound.
Now, if you have no license and they can not look you up because you are not in the system, or they look you up and you had your license taken away, or you don't have a passport with a stamp in it from Customs, you are going to have your vehicle impounded.
By the way - does anyone know why it is called illegal immigration, and the people are called illegal immigrants???
How can I word this simply - BECAUSE ITS AGAINST THE LAW.
Every single one of them is a criminal. No matter what their heart wrenching tale of woe is, they broke the law coming here, they broke the staying here, and they continue to break the law everyday they remain. Like it or not, it is illegal. Plain and simple.
May 13, 2008
4:06 PM
Dave Hampton writes:
OK - having been nailed for driving without a license, this is the dumbest set of postings I have seen yet.
This is not about illegals, or people who have forgotten their wallet while running an errand.
If you forget your ID, give the officer all your details; name, DOB, address and they can look it up. It will show them if you legally have a license - Tada! No impound.
Its about people who have lost their license due to various violations and are driving suspended, revoked or cancelled. And about people who have never had a license.
And it causing problems for tourists??? Please! If you are a tourist with a rental car, you needed a valid license to get it - Tada! No impound.
If you are a tourist from a foreign country, it easy to prove you are here legally. There is a stamp on your passport from when you entered the country - Tada! No impound.
Now, if you have no license and they can not look you up because you are not in the system, or they look you up and you had your license taken away, or you don't have a passport with a stamp in it from Customs, you are going to have your vehicle impounded.
By the way - does anyone know why it is called illegal immigration, and the people are called illegal immigrants???
How can I word this simply - BECAUSE ITS AGAINST THE LAW.
Every single one of them is a criminal. No matter what their heart wrenching tale of woe is, they broke the law coming here, they broke the staying here, and they continue to break the law everyday they remain. Like it or not, it is illegal. Plain and simple.
May 13, 2008
4:06 PM
Dave Hampton writes:
OK - having been nailed for driving without a license, this is the dumbest set of postings I have seen yet.
This is not about illegals, or people who have forgotten their wallet while running an errand.
If you forget your ID, give the officer all your details; name, DOB, address and they can look it up. It will show them if you legally have a license - Tada! No impound.
Its about people who have lost their license due to various violations and are driving suspended, revoked or cancelled. And about people who have never had a license.
And it causing problems for tourists??? Please! If you are a tourist with a rental car, you needed a valid license to get it - Tada! No impound.
If you are a tourist from a foreign country, it easy to prove you are here legally. There is a stamp on your passport from when you entered the country - Tada! No impound.
Now, if you have no license and they can not look you up because you are not in the system, or they look you up and you had your license taken away, or you don't have a passport with a stamp in it from Customs, you are going to have your vehicle impounded.
By the way - does anyone know why it is called illegal immigration, and the people are called illegal immigrants???
How can I word this simply - BECAUSE ITS AGAINST THE LAW.
Every single one of them is a criminal. No matter what their heart wrenching tale of woe is, they broke the law coming here, they broke the staying here, and they continue to break the law everyday they remain. Like it or not, it is illegal. Plain and simple.
May 13, 2008
4:30 PM
Anonymous writes:
Dave Hampton....one of the most sensible people on here!
May 13, 2008
4:33 PM
Captain America writes:
This sounds like one of those "the solution is worse than the original problem" things. Why complicate this? There are already laws in place that deal with illegal immigrants. Let's make those work instead of adopting extreme measures that may not only inconvenience rightful citizens, but in some cases punish them first, and prove their innocence later.
May 13, 2008
4:55 PM
JMH writes:
Keep trusting the government to act in your best interests shaggy... You must be the most naive person I have ever come across...
May 13, 2008
5:44 PM
Dirty Sanchez writes:
When one is in this country illegally they have no rights'''period. The impounding of an auto simply denies them from driving without a license or insurance. The next stop needs to be INS in Montbello for the tax payers special....THE BIG WHITE BUS.
May 13, 2008
6:03 PM
Anonymous writes:
This has nothing to do with leaving the license at home.
This is about illegal drivers of all races.
May 13, 2008
8:28 PM
YES--impound the cars of drivers without a license, DUH! writes:
"I feel so strongly because I feel that the intent is unfair," she (Montero) said. "The intent is to target a certain group of people and I think that that is inherently wrong."
Q. Why are Judy Montero, Chris Nevitt, and Rick Garcia not representing ALL constituents in this issue?
Well duh. Of COURSE the intent is to target "a certain group of people"--those who do not have a legal Colorado driver's license! Just how do these elected representatives expect to solve the problem of unlicensed drivers? Remember, these are drivers without insurance, as well! Montero, Garcia, and Nevitt are supposed to be representatives of ALL THE PEOPLE, not just "some of the people." What about those who are in auto accidents caused by unlicensed drivers? No license = No insurance=No drive! WHY is this even an issue that has to be voted on--if you don't have a license, and you're driving, it's ILLEGAL, and you deal with the consequences, even if it means your car gets impounded. In fact, once the car is impounded, it should be sold to pay for the costs of enforcement. Wonder if that's in the law we "get" to vote on this fall--if not, it should be!
May 14, 2008
1:32 AM
Jeff writes:
Yes, DUI offense- take away car
Yes, Driving without license - take away car
Yes, Driving on suspended license - take away car
Yes, leave scene of accident/hit and run- take away car
Yes, engage in high speed chase with cops- take away car.
Yes, No Insurance- Take away car
Yes, no vaild identification while operating vehicle- Take away car
This should apply to all, despite your race, gender, religion, sex, sexual orientation, legal status or any other hyper-sensitivities that one may have.
However, I'll hapilly let those type of people who violate those rules keep their vehicles on if we punish them the way Singapore did with that stupid white kid in the early 90's. Until we institute that type of punishment, let Police take ownership of the vehicle away from that person for the above reasons.
May 14, 2008
6:27 AM
david writes:
The people who are here legally have nothing to worry about. Too bad we can't just round up all the illegals and send them home.
May 14, 2008
7:12 AM
fiesty writes:
ANYONE, whether illegal or resident, driving a vehicle without a license is BREAKING THE LAW and deserves to be punished. I think taking away their car is entirely appropriate. Why not? Just as we ought to yank the license PERMANENTLY for anyone caught drinking and driving. We need to start giving our punishments TEETH to make them an actual deterent.
May 14, 2008
7:19 AM
thank God for term limits writes:
Now we know our city council representatives are too afraid to do the right thing. Hello? Aren't these people elected to represent voters? Instead of doing the right thing by passing a simple ordinance about this no-brainer issue (it's called doing their job, right?), our esteemed council members pass buck to "the voters" while lining up ways to create confusion and ultimately, defeat of an issue that should already be on the books, and enforced! What's wrong with this picture? Plenty. Denver city council representatives make in excess of $85,000 a year, with an office, at least two staff members, and plenty of freebie perks, like tix to sporting events, etc. Nice work when you can get it, which is even more reason to KEEP TERM LIMITS.
May 14, 2008
7:39 AM
JW writes:
"ANYONE, whether illegal or resident, driving a vehicle without a license is BREAKING THE LAW and deserves to be punished. I think taking away their car is entirely appropriate. Why not? Just as we ought to yank the license PERMANENTLY for anyone caught drinking and driving. We need to start giving our punishments TEETH to make them an actual deterent."
Im tempted to agree with this. Problem is, this kind of philosophy has given the USA 25% of the prison population on the planet, when we only have 5% of the population. Something is wrong there.
May 14, 2008
7:44 AM
Anonymous writes:
YES!! YES!! YES!!
There are too many stupid people on the road.
What kind of idiot forgets his license?
It is the LAW. Drivers must carry their license to drive, when they drive.
Police need ways to uphold the law.
This law targets stupid people!!
It may just be a coincidence, but most ILLEGALS, are stupid!
Just ask the Kwon's.
I am not a racist, I just hate idiots.
Not metnally challenged,
I hate those people who have a brain, and choose not to use it.
May 14, 2008
8:18 AM
Shaggy writes:
"this kind of philosophy has given the USA 25% of the prison population on the planet, when we only have 5% of the population"---JW
Can't speak for the rest of the world but the prison population problem here in the States is because we don't deport the illegals or we let them loose to commit again.
I'm in favor of an express railroad track straight to the border and run it daily.
Maybe just maybe we could keep up with the three thousand or so illegals that make their way here on a daily basis.
May 14, 2008
8:26 AM
Ben 's Border Street writes:
"this kind of philosophy has given the USA 25% of the prison population on the planet, when we only have 5% of the population"---JW
Can you do this math jw?
In fiscal year 2002, 33.6% of criminals sentenced in federal district courts under Federal Sentencing Guidelines were non-citizens, and 55% of these non-citizens were illegal aliens. This means that illegal aliens accounted for 17.5% of all crimes prosecuted in federal courts, whereas they are less than 6% of the adult population.
http://www.cairco.org/issues/issues_crime_us.html
May 14, 2008
8:41 AM
fiesty writes:
JW- this wouldn't send them to jail, but provide a punishment worthy of the crime. If my son does something wrong, he loses a privilege. Same applies here. Driving is not a right, it is a privilege; you do something wrong, then lose the privilege. It's that easy.
May 14, 2008
8:42 AM
Ben's Border Street writes:
Shaggy, 3000 apprehensions daily. Then add that for everyone illegal alien caught it is estimated that 4 do not, daily. These type of numbers have been going on for decades. Incredible isn't it?
May 14, 2008
8:54 AM
Anonymous writes:
Councilperson Jeanne Faatz is the most disingenous of these council members. She, along with the rest of our spineless city council troop have punted this issue to the voters, taking more taxpayer's time and taxpayer's money than necessary to deal with a simple issue: impounding cars of those driving without a license. The council could easily create an ordinance, yet won't, because they're looking to their next term and too afraid to p*ss off a few voters.
May 14, 2008
9:02 AM
JW writes:
"JW- this wouldn't send them to jail, but provide a punishment worthy of the crime. If my son does something wrong, he loses a privilege. Same applies here. Driving is not a right, it is a privilege; you do something wrong, then lose the privilege. It's that easy."
Agreed. My comment was more about the basic philosophy of this country being "Give laws teeth! PUNISH PUNISH PUNISH!" Thats how we have gotten such a disproportionately high prison population. Applying that same philosophy across the board seems like we are ignoring a basic flaw in that philosophy. It seems like for every issue like this, that is the solution. We dont even discuss alternatives. That was all I was saying. And in this case, I dont believe your use of the "punish!" philosophy is necessarily wrong. I just wonder if we would be better off getting away from that automatic reaction to every problem. We might still end up at the same place in the end, but perhaps there are better alternatives that go unused because we dont even consider them.
Just as something to think about,
What is the benefit to society in taking away someone's car? What alternatives might be more productive from a societal stand point? How might this law, if enacted, be detrimental?
May 14, 2008
9:11 AM
Shaggy writes:
Ben,
It is sad to see our Country invaded by illegals and the Government officials who put them ahead of Legal tax paying citizens.
Did you hear any of Peters show this morning?
L.A. now has a Rooster problem.
Yes..thats right, a Rooster problem.
The illegals are now raising Roosters in their dwellings for cock fighting and I guess food.
They live right in the same house with the illegals....This is how the bird flew began in the first place.
They can't put a ban on the practice because it would mean we are racist and we taking away their heritage.
It fucking unbelievable.
L.A has become a third world Country and Denver is right around the corner.
Instead of blending into our society they just bring their way of living to the United States and our Government officials protect them.
It's about time we start throwing Government officials in jail for not following the Law and protecting it's citizens.
Heres the kicker....they call them "urban Chicken Farmers".....So now to be political correct we need to call them "undocumented Urban Chicken Farmers"....It's crazy man.
http://www.immigrationwatchdog.com/?p=6507
May 14, 2008
9:18 AM
feisty writes:
JW- that rationale is precisely why judges need more alternatives than simply prison. It would be better if more punishments "fit the crime". In a case like this, (someone driving without a license), not only could we take away their car but we could also perhaps sell it, with the proceeds going towards whatever- that would take a negative and turn it into a positive benefit for society.
May 14, 2008
9:30 AM
JW writes:
Fiesty,
Possibly. As I was looking at the write up on the law, I thought there were a few REALLY bad ideas in it.
For instance, the part about impounding cars of anyone who ever forgets their licence. Thats just crazy. Youre going to take my car if I run out of the house without my wallet? That seems detrimental, more than helpful.
And taking the car of anyone who cannot prove they are here legaly is similarly flawed. I have friends from overseas. If I loan one my car for the day, and he gets pulled over...unless he has his passport with him, my car gets impounded. Even if he does, what is to stop the police officer from saying the visa stamp isnt proof as far as he is concerned? What kind of effect might that have on our tourism?
Anyway, I dont see this law as being well thought out.
I do think giving judges alternatives to prison time when sentencing is a damn good idea though. I find it funny that the same people who bitch about their taxes being too high are many times the first ones to say "Thow them in jail!" for any crime whatsoever.
May 14, 2008
9:40 AM
Anonymous writes:
JW, such a liberal stooge. Who cares about punishing the criminal. Its more to protect the honest citizens that shouldnt have to be subjected to car wrecks and hit and runs because people want to drive without a license and insurance. Granted, some drug laws have to led to useless imprisonments, but murderers, baby killers, child molesters, etc. You know, sort of how you agree with smoking be banned to protect your fucking lungs while you go and get shit faced at a bar? Can you get it you yet you moron? Its not just you pompus femdems that have a right to be protected from daily shit, its the rest of us as well you idiotic stooge. If you knew very much about other countries like you try to act like you do, you would know most criminals are killed, or beaten so severly not many dare pull the shit people around here pull IE: Running from cops, trying to kill cops, allowing warrants to happen, etc. Other countries deal with this shit the old fashioned way.
May 14, 2008
10:06 AM
gr8fuldude writes:
Good to see you again Harry.
Why did you stop signing your posts?
May 14, 2008
10:09 AM
Shaggy writes:
"I find it funny that the same people who bitch about their taxes being too high are many times the first ones to say "Thow them in jail!" for any crime whatsoever."---JW
Put the crack pipe down JW.
Taking someones car away for breaking the Law has NOTHING to do with someone bitching about taxes...sheesh man...You are really stretching now.
If you loan your car out it will still be registered to you and your friend is not going to jail and your car is not going to be impounded..
This is just stupid.
Some of the shit you post really makes me question your IQ.
May 14, 2008
11:10 AM
Karl Childers writes:
Shaggy, Ben, et al.
I don't see a big exodus of US citizens, leaving their homes, sneaking across the border to get into Mexico. Why? Could it be that there is no opportunity to feed your family there? Maybe living conditions are intolerable? Maybe there are terrible health services? Maybe there are lousy roads? Maybe there are no jobs? Maybe the jobs that exist hardly pay for subsistence? Why would you leave the comfort of your own home for a downgrade in lifestyle? Ever try looking at more than one side of a problem to try to understand it?
May 14, 2008
11:31 AM
Awards Committee writes:
Karl - Congrats! You win today's "Stupid Post of the Day" award! By a very wide margin!
Please stop at the RMN/Denver Post building to pick up your award by 5:00 on Friday.
May 14, 2008
11:33 AM
Shaggy writes:
Hey Karl I know this a secret that hardly anyone knows anymore but I'll let the cat out of the bag.
Ready?
There is a LEGAL way to become a U.S. citizen.
Shocker I know.
One more thing to remember and that is it isn't the taxpayers of the U.S. obligation to support impoverished people from another Country.
They do NOTHING for our economy.
Don't give me "the they pay taxes and don't receive anything in return" routine either.
They bring down wages.
They bankrupt Hospitals.
They close Schools or strain them so severly that they are useless.
They don't assimilate and take on our culture, they bring their own.
They come here uninvited and demand we take care of them.
They don't bother learning Spanish.
They want to fly their flag instead of the U.S. flag.
I can go ON AND ON AND ON.
Bottom line is they don't like our Country they just like what they can steal from this Country.
It is a bunch of crap.
They need to go home instead of turning our Country into a shit hole like Mexico is.
They already have turned many parts of our Country into looking like a third world Country as it is.
Go to L.A, San Diego, El Paso or any border town and you will see what I mean.
If we took everyone who wanted to come to America in we would be the most impoverished Country in the World.
Please watch this short speech...It is very informing and not at all racial.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265
May 14, 2008
11:35 AM
Anonymous writes:
I meant they don't learn english of course.
May 14, 2008
11:52 AM
Brian writes:
"bigots who populate America today" as if they only exist in America or are you implying that ALL Americans are bigots? Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black again.
Steve M; you go from illegal immigrants to immigrants and you make it sound as if we don’t allow anyone to come here legally; how about 700,000 LEGAL immigrants have to come to our country annually since 2000.
I believe if you don’t have a valid driver’s license to drive in this country your car should be impounded; years ago when I was a teen and I got caught driving with a suspended license and my car was impounded and I went to jail for a few hours; the police know whether you have a driver’s license or whether it is suspended etc; so if you just forgot it that alone would not require that your car be impounded. Here illegally or not if you are caught driving when you don’t have the LEGAL documents to drive you should be taken off the street!
May 14, 2008
12:37 PM
Ben's Border Street writes:
Karl, Most illegal aliens from south of our border HAVE jobs. They come across legally because bleeding hearts such as yourself want to shower them with social benefits meant for citizens and immigrants who have followed or system.
Karl, do me a favor. Take down your doors and any fencing you have around your domicile and then let it be known that you will feed, educate and accomodate anyone and overlook any illegal behaviors or acts. See what happens to your world. Spare us your sanctimonious selfishness. I would ask YOU to take an open-minded view. You have blinders on.
May 14, 2008
12:38 PM
Anonymous writes:
Shaggy,
Yeah, there is a legal way to become a citizen. But the reality is there is no way to stop people from coming here, regardless of what the government tries to do.
People will naturally try follow the opportunities that will feed their families. No amount of legislation, walls, or enforcement will change that.
The people who come here have the same motivations we have: to make a better life for themselves.
They come here and do the sh*t jobs because employers won't pay a living wage and US citizens can't afford to take those jobs.
They sure as hell contribute to this society, whether or not anybody wants to acknowledge it.
As for the downgrading of our educational system, the strain on our infrastructure, and a whole lot of other problems, I will admit that they contribute to them. However, they are not the sole cause. The problems are too complex to blame on any one element.
If the immigration problem were to suddenly disappear one day, we would still be left with the same problems as before. It it too simplistic to think immigration is only cause to societal ills.
I don't believe you when you say that they hate our country. Why would people risk so much to come to a country they hate?
They would assimilate given the opportunity, but the system does not allow it. They are driven underground by the rules. Having an shadow society is not good, I agree.
I am tired of hearing people cry 'victim' when I see so many being exploited by unscrupulous employers. Those people are here because the US policy has failed. It has failed to protect our borders. It has failed to protect our jobs. If you ask me, it is not the immigrants who are the problem: it is the greed and avarice of a few US citizens that is the problem.
May 14, 2008
12:50 PM
Ben's Border Street writes:
12:38 So if Americans want better lives for themselves and their families by having our immigration laws followed this is somehow not a concern? I want what is best for my children sure. Illegal immigration is not what is best for my children. It is not what is best for Ammerica's children.
May 14, 2008
12:58 PM
Karl Childers writes:
12:38 is Karl Childers
May 14, 2008
1:08 PM
Karl Childers writes:
We can get a better life for ourselves by demanding the government do their job. Like it or not, the govt has to level the playing field so everyone has a shot, not just a privileged few. That would be Mexico. The US can do better than that. Immigration is one problem, but not the only, and not the biggest. Mostly, immigration is just a wedge issue to distract us from the real problems.
May 14, 2008
1:18 PM
Ben-Border Native writes:
Karl,
Illegal immigration is a state of emergency problem.
May 14, 2008
1:24 PM
Karl Childers writes:
Ben,
Don't you believe it.
May 14, 2008
1:27 PM
Illegal alien writes:
Karl, Please forward the contents of your bank account and the title to your house to my family in Chiapas pronto. We will entering the country illegally soon. I just want a better life for my family like you said. You being so compassionate and all.
May 14, 2008
1:36 PM
Ben's Border Street writes:
Sorry Karl, I know illegal immigration will spell disaster for this country if it continues as it has, and I predict you will live to know that truth as well.
May 14, 2008
2:02 PM
Brain writes:
Karl; "No amount of legislation, walls, or enforcement will change that."
Enforcing our laws especially against employers will "change that". We will have less of it; the mantra "they're going to do it anyway" shouldn't mean that we do nothing!
May 14, 2008
2:13 PM
just askin writes:
Karl, Did you just wake up after a 20 year Rip Van Winkle nap?
May 14, 2008
2:32 PM
Anonymous writes:
Karl - Where do you buy your meth?
May 14, 2008
2:53 PM
Evan writes:
Just an observation or two:
Myopic posters like JW like to quote tidbit statistics for sensational effect. If he were to really understand the generalizations he makes (quite often in fact) he might stop to think before shooting. Many countries in this world have low crime rates and low incarceration rates because a. The laws are strict and the punishment severe and b. The laws are strict and the punishments are severe - executed criminals do not linger in jail.
Anonymous propagandist posters who seek to hold illegal immigrants blameless conveniently always forget to include sanctuary cities, counties, and states that aid and abet the criminals (that is, the illegal immigrants and their illegal employers).
These are tired tactics of the uniformed, emotional reactionaries among us.
May 14, 2008
2:59 PM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) Somebody needs to castrate our Federal government writes:
Illegal invaders should be prosecuted under RICO Act. Don't stop at cars, take all assets to help pay the cost of defending our borders which is called for in the US Constitution.
May 14, 2008
3:06 PM
Jack writes:
Evan, before you step down from your soapbox about "anonymous propagandist posters", check out other threads in which the vast majority of the "anonymous propaganda" comes from the far right of the political spectrum. Or is it not propaganda if you agree with it?
Its ridiculous to think that anyone, left or right, thinks that uncontrolled illegal immigration isn't a problem. Anyone who tries to make you think that's the liberal position--or frankly anyone's position--is trying to sell you something. The question is, and always has been, how we deal with the problem. It's not whether or not there is a problem.
That sort of thing is reserved for silly, unimportant stuff like global climate change.
May 14, 2008
3:18 PM
Evan writes:
So Jack... in your view should illegal immigrants be held responsible for any of the problems stemming from their illegal immigration, document fraud, identity theft, theft of social services, abuse of the birthright citizenship... and so forth?
May 14, 2008
3:58 PM
Karl Childers writes:
Ben,
The truth we will both live to see is that our lifestyle has been robbed from us. We agree on that, I think. However, it won't be because of immigration, though. It will be because of a handful of US citizens that decided that no one should share in the wealth except for them. Then we will all be exploited aliens in our own country: with or without documents.
May 14, 2008
4:30 PM
Holier Than Thou writes:
Why would any illegal immigrant brave the burning heat of the desert or a bumpy 1000 mile ride packed in with scores of other suffocating immigrants in a windowless moving van?
The answer is that they are trying to get to work. They've already been hired. Nobody goes through that kind of Hell just to look for a job and maybe get turned down. For that, they can stay home and pound salt.
There are anywhere from 5 to 500 illegal immigrants per boss in a typical company that hires them. So, which of the following solutions eliminates the illegal immigration problem with minimal jail space usage:
A. Arrest and jail the employer of the illegal immigrants.
B. Arrest and jail the 5 to 500 illegal immigrants who work for the employer allowing him to replace them all in the next few weeks with another van load or so.
If you picked A, you can do math!
Racist solutions never work out in the long run because they're stupid. Confiscating vehicles driven by illegal immigrants isn't going to do anything except create another crop of car thieves on both sides of the law.
Like I've said before, it you want to solve this problem you need to punish the bosses who are causing it.
Supporting a bullshit ordinance like this only marks you as a sucker because you're avoiding the real issue.
May 14, 2008
4:33 PM
Evan writes:
I thought so...
Next.
May 14, 2008
4:35 PM
DIA Management writes:
Karl / Jack -
Your stall has just been cleaned and is ready for your use. For your blogging convenience, all of DIA is now a WiFi zone, so you can blog when you are done.
May 14, 2008
4:37 PM
Jack writes:
Evan: of course they should. They broke the law, and they should be held accountable. My only quibble with this proposal is that it supercedes the present system in an onerous way. It's both vague and burdensome, and will only cause more problems.
My question is how do we deal with the way in which the American economy leans heavily on the illegal population, without costing us all more money than they already have been? And how do we allow for a more realistic immigration policy while tightening our too-loose borders?
May 14, 2008
4:49 PM
Evan writes:
Your first assumption is that illegal immigration, illegal workers, and illegal employers help the economy. I assume that is what you mean. In fact, our economy is not built upon the illegal labor market - it is a just a short term loan. Our economy never realizes the benefits of wages paid to resident workers who then spend that money in their communities. Most of that money gets exported to foreign countries. This whole mess is draining our economy insidiously and is a self defeating cycle.
Foreign guest workers should be utilized for specific markets if an employer truly cannot get US workers and pays a living wage. These must be temporary workers. The pie-in-the-sky bleeding hearts want these people to become citizens. Ask any business person if that makes sense.
Get the politics and PC madness out of the equation and you will have your answers.
May 14, 2008
4:53 PM
Karl Childers writes:
Hey just askin':
The problem is exactly the same as it was 20 years ago: exploitation of the poor for the benefit of the rich.
May 14, 2008
4:56 PM
? writes:
I think I missed something during my reading of Holier in the Head than Thou's post.
How is arresting an illegal immigrant a racist act?
May 14, 2008
5:18 PM
Jack writes:
I'm not saying that illegals help the economy; I'm saying they play an important part in it. I'm not talking about a return, I'm talking about a work force that's largely underpaid upon which major American agriculture depends.
I agree that following the money trail shows the shortcomings of the system we have now. That money doesn't come back to us. But doesn't a guest worker system perpetuate that outflow?
I'm not among those who'd just open the borders and allow everyone in. But there has to be a sensible solution that's more fair to those coming in legally, and Americans in general.
May 14, 2008
5:51 PM
Karl Childers writes:
Jack, Evan,
I like the discussion you are having. You are getting to the heart of the problem. If you look at the markets that guest workers occupy, you will see similarities to almost any other labor market. Employers (corporations, etc) want to maximize their earnings. That is fair enough. They can achieve this goal by reducing wages. Whether this is fair is debatable. Most of the time I think not. The problem arises when employers don't want to pay employees a living wage. That is when we see employers exploiting undocumented workers here in the US. For the most part, the federal government turns a blind eye to this type of exploitation due to the influence of very rich and powerful interests. This is exactly why we have an immigration situation like we have (and have had for many generations) in the US. The federal government is not going to prosecute the special interests. The only people to suffer will be the ones at the bottom: the undocumented workers.
May 14, 2008
6:02 PM
Report & Deport writes:
Back during the Great Depression,
President Herbert Hoover ordered the deportation of all illegal aliens in order to make jobs available to American citizens that desperately needed work.
And then again in 1954, President Dwight Eisenhower deported 13 million Mexican nationals! The program was called 'Operation Wetback' so that American WWII and Korean veterans had a better chance at jobs. It took 2 years, but they deported them!
Now, if they could deport the illegals back then, they can sure do it today!! If you have doubts about the veracity of this information, enter Operation Wetback into your favorite search engine and confirm it for yourself.
Reminder. Don't forget to pay your taxes...30 million illegal aliens are depending on you!
May 14, 2008
6:59 PM
Ben's Border Street writes:
I don't really see how lowering American standards to accomodate third world countries is beneficial to anyone besides our enemies. If anything, we should hold Mexico's elite responsible for Mexico's poor, not middle class Americans. If this means stopping all illegal immigration in such a way that a bloodletting class war and wealth redistribution occurs in Mexico, so be it. Pick you warzones: Mexico or mainstreet USA.
May 14, 2008
7:03 PM
Ben's Border Street writes:
I don't really see how lowering American standards to accomodate third world countries is beneficial to anyone besides our enemies. If anything, we should hold Mexico's elite responsible for Mexico's poor, not middle class Americans. If this means stopping all illegal immigration in such a way that a bloodletting class war and wealth redistribution occurs in Mexico, so be it. Pick you warzones: Mexico or mainstreet USA.
May 14, 2008
8:15 PM
Evan writes:
Actually, a guest worker program will target the industries that need temporary labor and enforcement of labor laws including mandatory checking of work eligibility will eliminate the illegal employer/illegal alien relationship. The result of that fundamental change will raise the artificially low wages paid by employers who solicit illegal labor, who willingly accepts just about any wage structure.
The outflow of monies will be counterbalanced by the elimination of welfare abuse, healthcare abuse, and the cessation of the anchor baby industry that pushes all of this into an endless loop.
May 14, 2008
8:25 PM
Evan writes:
And, the most logical source of guest workers are the already present illegal aliens. A path to citizenship has to be eliminated for this to work.
By doing so, the most logical middle road will have been achieved. Legal anchor babies need not be separated from their families and vice versa. Illegal aliens really should not expect or demand more.
May 15, 2008
8:51 AM
Karl Childers writes:
Report and Deport,
Just because we did it before is no reason we should do it again. We rounded up US citizens of Japanese descent and put them in camps. Does that mean we should do that sort of thing again?
May 15, 2008
9:43 AM
DR writes:
Karl said, "We rounded up US citizens of ...... Does that mean we should do that sort of thing again?"
Absolutely NOT!
But the ILLEGAL citizens who broke the law, and the companies that hired them in violation of federal and state laws, should not be rewarded either.
May 15, 2008
9:50 AM
Report & Deport writes:
Just because we did it before is no reason we should do it again. We rounded up US citizens of Japanese descent and put them in camps. Does that mean we should do that sort of thing again?
Posted by Karl Childers on May 15, 2008 8:51 AM
I can't believe you are serious, the fricking Japanese bombed peril harbor dumb ass, thats why the Japs were rounded up and detained...got it???? We were at WAR with Japan....YES if Mexico bomed Whashington we should round up every single illegal and put them in prison camps and then deport them.
Do you understand we need to protect our Country??
Your not the sharpest knife in the drawer are you.
Unbelievable.
I swear, when it comes to educating some of the wacko open borders people it's next to impossible, it's like teaching a damn cow to quit drooling.
May 15, 2008
9:54 AM
Ben's Border Street writes:
Karl if you wish to be truly unignorant about illegal immigration, you wouldn't compare apples to doorknobs.
May 15, 2008
10:14 AM
Ben 's Border Street writes:
Karl, your "cause" would be best served if you moved to Mexico and helped the people say, in Chiapas. Then you could really put your money where your mouth is. How about it Karl? You may even see how the Chiapans treat illegal aliens from Central America.
May 15, 2008
10:45 AM
Anonymous writes:
'.... exploitation of the poor for the benefit of the rich.'
oh brother ... Karl, did we force 'em to come here? .... did we go and capture slaves like Kuntah Kentay? did we have cutthroats go in to Shanghai them? good god man, they come here of their own volition to a far better opportunity than they have in their corrupt country at home .... nobody would have a problem with it if we had a viable guest worker program that supplied labor as necessary, and the workers went home when their services weren't needed any longer ... but to throw in the towel and just accept that they're here, they might as well stay, oh hell, just let them be citizens .... what a load of crap .... and I'd also point out that even America's poor benefits from the cheaper labor ... not just the 'rich' who, by the way, couldn't care less if they had to pay $4 for a head of lettuce ... kee-ryst, you make it sound like the wealthy slave masters are forcing the illegals across the border to put food on the tables in the plantations for all the richy-rich folks ... wake up
May 15, 2008
10:54 AM
Ben 's Border Street writes:
We have 9 Guest Worker programs already. For some reason I don't think spending money on a 10th is money well spent in light of the circumstances.
Tancredo has a plan HR 3333 for the use of foreign workers, if one wishes to investigate.
May 15, 2008
1:14 PM
Anonymous writes:
hey Ben, yeah, I know, but we need to put them all into a big mixing bowl and come up with one that works, probably by the simple fact that it would be enforced .... I'll tell you, there is just nothing more inefficient and worthless than a government program, but let you or me get caught with a bootleg CD or a prescription we bought from Canada, and we'd end up in prison with all due speed .... just pisses me off
May 15, 2008
1:28 PM
Ben writes:
Yep.
May 15, 2008
6:41 PM
Evan writes:
Ben and Shaggy: I proposed a guest worker program for the illegal aliens already present in the US that does not lead to citizenship. Would you both support that? Would you add additional restrictions or require them to return to their home country if their services are no longer needed?
What do you think?
May 16, 2008
9:25 AM
Anonymous writes:
Report and Deport,
Excuse me for making the distinction between US citizens of Japanese descent and Japanese citizens. I thought all citizens had the same rights regardless of descent. But that subtlety is probably lost on you.
I agree we need to protect our country and try to solve the border problem. But we should not do it at the expense of our rights.
I agree with DR. We should not reward corporations if they are exploiting these people. When they exploit them they are exploiting us. The undocumented workers have been demonized when the root of the problem exists elsewhere.
We've got gaping open wounds (immigrants flooding into the US) the cause is cancer (companies exploiting cheap labor) and the solution is to put a band-aid on it (build a wall, deport them all)?
Get out your whetting stone R&D.
May 16, 2008
9:45 AM
Karl Childers writes:
10:45,
Do you have any idea the risks these people make by sneaking into the US? Would you take the same risks to sneak into Mexico? I think not. You would have to have a hell of an incentive to do such a desperate act.
The economic situation is one of exploitation. Yes, in effect, we do force them to come here. Not overtly, but by ignoring the horrendous situations that force people to make these kinds of decisions. Why can't the US lean on Mexico to clean up their act? Follow the money and you'll have your answer.
May 17, 2008
11:55 AM
Monty writes:
Mr. Jay Childers:
Your logic is fatally flawed in declaring the cause of illegal immigration to be the US. It is the same fatally flawed argument that Mexico uses to blame the US for the uncontrolled corruption and narcotrafficking being facilitated by their own government law officials.
Until, and only until, apologists like you start holding Mexico responsible for their very prominent role in all of this will the problems continue ad infinitum.
NEXT.