November 14, 2008 7:13 AM
Golden says Santa's OK, menorah not so much
Santa stays but there will be no menorah beside the light-festooned tree in downtown Golden.
City Council waded into the murky public/private Christmas/holiday decorations morass by amending a resolution to allow Santa to stay on the downtown arch because of its historical significance, reports Julie Hutchinson.
The ordinance prohibits holiday displays on city property of any religious symbols or symbols associated with a particular religious or cultural tradition.City officials had amended the resolution to include Santa over concerns that he might be viewed as a religious symbol.
Rabbi Levi Brackman, who addressed council members Thursday night, said he was surprised at the exception in spite of an overwhelming show of support from citizens calling on the council to figure out a way to allow all kinds of religious displays during the Christmas season.
"I am stunned that council completely ignored the citizens here tonight," Brackman said.
The council passed the ordinance in response to Brackman's request to erect a menorah, a nine-stemmed candelabra that symbolizes the Jewish holiday of Hanukkah.
Council members vowed to revisit the issue this spring to study ways to make holiday displays more inclusive of religious traditions. Mayor Jacob Smith said the council should take its time in making such decisions.
No word about whether a Festivus Pole will be allowed.
Should cities allow Christmas trees, menorahs and other symbols on public property? Are we getting over the whole attack-on-Christmas thing? Especially since many stores have been in full Christmas mode since October?
November 12, 2008
3:17 PM
momma y writes:
Anybody here want to speak on topic?
It would be nice to get through a Christmas without a pi$$ing contest. I would leave two options for municipalities. First there would be a divided display area where each religion could be assigned voltage, square footage and display frontage. Any group could bid and those who won would be awarded the prime spots while those who lost would get inferior, less visible, spots.
Second option would be to allow the various religions to bid on the spaces available, including atheists as bidders, and the right to decorate that area would be granted in return for the amount bid and a deposit to ensure that the area would be cleaned up after the holidays. Would most certainly be fair and has a precedent in the purchase of usage passes.
I'd ignore those whiners who complain. Frankly, I'd sign a hundred year contract with the three high bidders and divide the frontage according to bid amounts. Every year the city could set aside a dead pine on a manhole cover for all those who want to have a different display.
If Christians complained about the atheists, I'd tell them that was the price paid to permit a Christian display. Likewise any other group whining about fairness.
Golden "sanitized" its display. That may be quite foolish. There is an example for Golden in what happened to Hick last year. There are a lot of people voting who have no guide in politics.
Elections can rise or fall on things too small to matter in everyday life. Just ask McNichols. He didn't plow the snow in December 1982. He lost because it just happened to snow on election day the following May.
Wisest course is middle of the road if you can dodge the traffic from both sides.
November 12, 2008
4:07 PM
Peterpi writes:
Sasquatch, how does the city of Golden, its holiday display, and a Jewish rabbi equate to Obama taking over the world?
There is no "War on Christmas". There's a war on those businesses and cities that recognize not everyone is Christian, and want to recognize that fact.
Even though I'm Jewish, I think the rabbi is wrong in his complaint about Golden's display. It sounds like the Golden display is secular and wintry in theme. If the rabbi wants local Jewish children to receive affirmation of their faith, what better person to provide it than the rabbi himself?
Same with Christians: Government buildings aren't the place to affirm your faith. Christian churches are.
I think the City and County of Denver ought to sell the creche display to the highest bidding church, then give them zoning rights to display it during Christmas. Take the proceeds and put it in the city's emergency food stamps fund.
November 12, 2008
8:52 PM
LetsThink writes:
It's amazing (but frightening).
America was obviously founded by Christians. But now the 10-20% of Americans who do not believe in God are trying their best to drive Christianity (and God) totally out of America.
Will they succeed?? And if they do, what will America become?
November 12, 2008
9:09 PM
jay writes:
bigfoot, your rhetoric is a burden to this blog.
i believe you capable of cogent contributions.
i hope you rise to the occasion and if not, I hope you allow us to move on without you.
concerning the "war" on christmas....
speaking as an atheist, i hope that we as a society can treat the end of the calendar year as a culmination and celebration of many different cultures.
In my opinion, it would be nice to walk down "main street" and witness a plethora of celebrations on display.
i believe that our ancestors' customs and beliefs should be preserved in a manner benefitting their place in our history.
as a melting pot, it would be a travesty to deny our children the chance to taste the stew.
November 13, 2008
5:48 AM
Ben-Native American writes:
I don't want my children tasting your stew jay, I want them celebrating their American heritage and culture which includes specifically the ubiquitiousness of the Christian religion.
If you noticed, the USA isn't a "melting pot" anymore (century old buzzword), more like a dumping ground in modern times.
November 13, 2008
8:55 AM
Keeth Oberdaman writes:
Bill o the clown
hmmm
every year at this time same rant.
This is getting old. His ratings are going down too
November 13, 2008
9:07 AM
Anonymous writes:
"America was obviously founded by Christians."
who wrote the constitution which allows for freedom of religion which precludes one religion being forced on others.
America was first settled by Indians who were Pagan. These were the first Americans.
November 13, 2008
9:56 AM
GladysKravitz writes:
Isn't it interesting that the religious people who expect, even demand to be included in promoting their faith are the first ones on the forefront to deny Americans of their civil, secular rights when it comes to marraige equality/civil unions.
November 13, 2008
11:24 AM
DEMSBETTER writes:
Everyone has the right to say and vote for what they believe in. They also sometimes have to suffer the consequences of it. Look at the Bush debt and destroyed economy if you don't believe that.
November 13, 2008
11:08 PM
peterpi writes:
sasquatch, you made your point about the Dow, so quit spamming this board. The Dow fell long before election day.
Regarding the topic at hand, which is supposed to be the alleged "War on Christmas", I find it strange that Golden was content to be without a policy, but when a Jewish rsbbi makes a request, all of a sudden Golden goes into a flurry of activity.
The rabbi is ignorant on one point: "Christmas trees" are essentially secular. They started out as pagan symbols, were co-opted by Christians, but even non-Christians have them now. Depending on what's put on them, they can be totally secular in charcter.
To all you "Christmas warriors", if the only way in your mind to validate Christmas is to force people to say "Merry Christmas at the cost of their livelihood, their employment, their busineses' future, then you yourselves have already lost Christmas.
I'm Jewish, but I know the meaning of Christmas. It's about peace on earth and good will to all. It's about spreading cheer. It's about hope for the future. In religious terms, it's about the Incarnation of God in human form as a helpless little baby.
Instead of forcing people and businesses to say "Merry Christmas!" -- or else! and it better be with a smile! -- How about:
Signing up with an agency that finds replacements for people who work on Christmas and who need to be with their family.
Working with any agency planning on feeding the homeless a nice joliday meal.
Know of a family in financial distress? Anonymously (and I do mean anonymously) find a way to give them a gift certificate so that the fanily can have a nice holiday meal and gifts for their children.
And lastly,
Go to church, and celebrate Christmas in the place it was meant to be celebrated.
November 14, 2008
8:11 AM
Mark Wolf writes:
Cleaned out the way off-topic comments about Wall Street and gay marriage. Plenty of posts to discuss those issues.
November 14, 2008
9:07 AM
Tbone writes:
Am I the only one that smells a lawsuit coming?
November 14, 2008
9:35 AM
history buff writes:
Even though the economy is tanking, and I now have a monthly cash burn supporting extended family that could be going for the purchase of vino, I am very cheerful about the season. I've been scarfing down chocolate chip cookies and can't wait to deck the halls and trim the tree. As far as the government's role in promoting religion this time of year? I say, keep it secular. There is plenty of private property and church property to decorate with a religious theme.
November 14, 2008
9:57 AM
Ben writes:
Nah, Keep it traditional. Good job Golden! Let the menorah display happen in Israel, this is Christmas country!
November 14, 2008
10:07 AM
John writes:
There is a difference between xmas the relious holiday and xmas the secular holiday.
This is the part where confusion lies
the secular holiday is Santa claus, trees etc.
the religious holiday is the Jesus manger depictions.
the secular version should be ok on public property.
November 14, 2008
10:50 AM
Tbone writes:
Wow Ben. Talk about some anti-semitism.
November 14, 2008
11:02 AM
Matt writes:
78% of Jews voted for the Hamas friendly Obama, why would they draw the line over a menorah?
November 14, 2008
11:38 AM
Ben-Exposer of left wing intoerance and hate writes:
Wow Tbone. Talk about a drama queen.
November 14, 2008
11:50 AM
gr8fuldude writes:
Hbuff, the bigger question is how did you wind up bankrolling family? Aging parents or slacker siblings? I may be looking at the parent scenario soon myself. I think cheap elder care will soon be a very high growth industry.
November 14, 2008
1:08 PM
GladysKravitz writes:
It is disappointing that the City Council could find it within the spirit of community any type of inclusion. However, it is not required that city govt do so either. I will light my Hanukkiah/Menorah at home with the lights of religious freedom that it represents, fully displayed in my window for all to see.
Likewise, I will respect secular govt that it does not impose religious values and laws when it comes to my private civil liberties. And that relgious folks respect my civil secular rights too.
November 14, 2008
1:09 PM
history buff writes:
8dude, not elder care. My dad retired with pension and 100% health insurance coverage. Also has his profit sharing and a house that was paid for in 1974. It's the slacker sibling that I helped start a business. I'm on the hook for the business debts while he tries to reconcile his drivers license, and now looks like he will lose his house, so he and his dog will be living under my roof. My dad is in his 80s and is totally self sufficient. It will be good to see him next week when he flies out for Thanksgiving.
November 14, 2008
4:15 PM
Dirk Digler writes:
Alabama calls out for you Bennie
November 14, 2008
5:50 PM
Ben-- Native American writes:
Dirk, you watch to much t.v.
December 1, 2008
7:27 AM
Jason writes:
Ben, look who's talking.
December 1, 2008
7:27 AM
Jason writes:
Ben, look who's talking.