December 4, 2008 7:31 AM
Big 3 back before Congress: this time with humility
They're back. This time with humble pie crumbs still on their lips. No more corporate jets; this time they travelled in hybrids. And all they want is $34 billion.
"We're here today because we made mistakes," General Motors chief executive Rick Wagoner told the Senate Banking Committee in prepared testimony.The three executives made the trip in new-model autos made by their respective companies, two weeks after a botched attempt for aid that included harsh criticism of corporate leaders who flew here on private jets to beg for money.
Ahead of testifying before the Senate Banking Committee, Wagoner apologized for asking for the help from taxpayers. Speaking with reporters, he said, "We wish the market conditions were better. They're not."
PREVIOUSLY:
Bankruptcy isn't an option for the Big 3 domestic automakers and a carmaker collapse could send the economy spiraling into a depression.
Jim Press, Chrysler's vice chairman, said the U.S. automakers were "down to months left," as industry officials ratcheted up a fierce lobbying push to persuade Congress to approve as much as $34 billion in emergency aid."We're on the brink with the U.S. auto manufacturing industry," Press told The Associated Press in an interview. "If we have a catastrophic failure of one of these car companies, in this tender environment for the economy, it's a huge blow. It could trigger a depression."
The UAW, scrambling to preserve jobs and benefits that could disappear with an automaker collapse, agreed at an emergency meeting in Detroit to delay the companies' payments to a multibillion-dollar, union-run health care trust and scale back a jobs bank in which laid-off workers are paid most of their salaries.
Ron Gettelfinger, the UAW chief, said the union would go back to the negotiating table to consider further givebacks to the Big Three.
Fritz Henderson, president and chief operating officer of General Motors Corp., took to the TV airwaves to stress that bankruptcy isn't a viable option on the eve of a new set of congressional hearings on the auto bailout. He said that choosing the bankruptcy route would further erode consumer confidence in the automaker and the manufacturers want people to have confidence in their ability to buy from them.
Meanwhile, U.S. auto sales in November dropped to their lowest levels since 1982.
Denver auto dealer Don Hicks offers this perspective on how to put the Big 3 back on their feet.
Now that the notion of "prepackaged bankruptcy" has been floated, the path is clear for the necessary restructuring of the Detroit Three's business model. They need to be enabled to compete on a level playing field with their competitors. Here is what the president should do:* Take the average pay of all the workers in the U.S. transplant-auto industry (proud American workers building vehicles in America and paying taxes on their wages) and use that as the standard for their counterparts at the Detroit Three.
* Do the same with the Detroit Three executives and make their perks match the transplants' counterparts.
* Turn existing pensions over to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. with enough bailout money to make sure that retirees get most, if not all, of the pensions they worked for. Start pension plans for new workers based on the transplant model. 401(k)s with contributions from the employer and the employee seem the most popular.
* Take the average medical benefit packages from the transplants and make them the new standard for Detroit Three employees.
Do the automakers deserve a bailout? Under what conditions? Would a bankruptcy plunge the country into depression? Is a bailout throwing good money after bad?
December 3, 2008
8:30 AM
Shaggy writes:
Hey Wolf,
Have you heard about the two day full page add in the Chicago Tribune putting more heat on Obama to reveal his true identity?
I just found out something else this morning.
Factcheck.org is an extension of the organization that Obama served on the same board with the terrorist William Ayers.
Barry and the DNC are clearly fighting hard to keep from producing anything about Barry's past.
They are deliberately trying to deceive the American people.
Regardless of party affiliation people should demand Barry provide proof.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/acrobat/2008-12/43669993.pdf
December 3, 2008
8:51 AM
JW writes:
Shaggy,
Why is it that the RNC didnt bring all this out during the campaign?
Why did the RNC just let Obama get away with this?
Why is it necessary for some fringe whackos to track this down when the RNC is clearly more capable?
Why is it you arent mad at John McCain for releasing obviously faked medical records?
December 3, 2008
8:56 AM
SASQUATCH writes:
A PICTURE IS WORTH 1,000 WORDS:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/STPuilvI6PI/AAAAAAAAH50/LuaBtS3Rgaw/s1600-h/wsj.gif
Losing market share for decades, building an inferior product that nobody wants, paying uneconomic UAW wages--$75 p/h--and splashing red ink even during good times is a very bad bet for America. Meanwhile, successful and profitable ransplants are opening plants and hiring American workers right here and faster than GM can close plants and lay-off workers. The Big-3 won't be missed.
How many times has America heard, "We got it right this time?" We don't need to pay $100 billion to hear that again!
Why not just pay Toyota and two other transplants $25-50 billion to take over B-3 facilities and run them successfully--without the UAW?
Between now and then, and before you make your next purchase, think about 3 things: Who is going to honor that warranty, who is going to provide replacement parts and components like your transmission and who is going to give you a good trade-in price?
Then buy your Totota/BMW transplant.
December 3, 2008
9:09 AM
Ben writes:
Nice work shag.
Why I will never buy a Ford product again:
http://www.theamericanresistance.com/articles/art2000fall_sc_funding_hate_3.html
December 3, 2008
9:29 AM
SASQUATCH writes:
GM'S SOLUTION IS "RE-VOLTING"
GM's proposed Chevy Volt will be powered by a $7,500 taxpayer handout (aka a taxpayer financed bribe) to every American Volt buyer, assuming GM survives long enough to sell the much-hyped plug-in hybrid to American taxpayers.
Another subsidy is in the works, in the form of a mileage rating of 100 mpg that would allow GM to make and sell that many more low-mileage vehicles under the fleet-average mileage rules, the Wall Street Journal reminds in an opinion piece published a few days ago.
Even as GM teeters toward bankruptcy and wheedles for billions in public aid, the Volt continues to absorb a big chunk of the company's product development budget.
This is a car that, by GM's own admission, won't make money for GM (is GM a registered charity or non-profit?), the Journal notes. It's a $40,000 car that will be unsalable without multiple handouts, bailouts and bribes from us taxpayers.
GM Vice-Chairman Bob Lutz has said Volt owners won't ever have to use the vehicle's small gas generator to recharge the battery powering the car's electric drivetrain if the car is recharged every 40 miles or less (hahahahahaha). That's at least 75 recharges for a croos-country and may 5-10 to visit grandma. In other words, the Volt is not really a car, its a perpetual "recharger."
But as the WSJ reports, hardly mentioned is the fact that gasoline goes bad and turns rancid after a few months. So if the Volt is used as intended, for daily trips of 40 miles or less, its tank will have to be drained periodically and the gas disposed of. You just dump the rancid and gas into the nearest sewer.
And how does this GM solution compare to a $12,000 Hyundai that gives you 30-35 mpg at the rate of about $25 per fill-up? The Volt promises to be a warranty nightmare (who is going to honor it, what about replacement parts and trade-in values?), best suited for a permanent position in your garage, constantly recharging and waiting for you to do your run to Costco.
Are you done laughing yet?
December 3, 2008
9:41 AM
benn writes:
Squatch,
Anyone who buys a Volt for cross-country trips is an idiot.
However, the Volt sounds like a great option for someone who commutes 40 miles or less in a day (like myself). Or needs to gun to the grocery store, or the mall, or wherever.
For my family, we would consider selling one of our gas-cars, and keeping another. We'd have a car for the uncommon long hauls, and an electric for everyday use.
Not too tough to understand. Your post just laughs off the fact that many people only need to commute 40 miles or less on a regular basis.
That all being said, I will never buy a Chevy.
December 3, 2008
10:32 AM
Shaggy writes:
JW,
Been out of the office but I am pissed that McCain and the RNC did not bring this up, he also wouldn't bring up the Rev. Wright issue, then only at the 11th hour did he bring up William Ayers.
McCain clearly ran a piss poor campaign.
"Why is it you arent mad at John McCain for releasing obviously faked medical records?"
First I have heard of this but if it is true it should be looked into just like it should be looked into why Barry produced several fake documents.
The problem is that Nancy Pelosi put Barry on the ticket without properly vetting him and is now doing everything to protect him from having to follow the Constitution.
When everything is added it clearly shows Barry is covering something up and we should all be pissed he is doing it and demand he put this issue to rest.
Another thing, did you know that when Barry traveled to Pakistan it was illegal for ANY American to travel there?
However it wasn't illegal for an Indonesian Citizen to travel there.
Did you also know that one HAD to be a Indonesian Citizen to go to public School at the time he went to School in Indonesia?
Well, here is a copy of Barry's School record in Indonesia, which means he was indeed a Citizen of Indonesia to qualify.
http://citizenwells.wordpress.com/2008/10/12/obama-barry-soetoro-indonesian-school-records-obama-is-indonesian-philip-j-berg-lawsuit-obama-ineligible-to-be-president/
Every piece of evidence reeks that Barry does not meet the requirements of the Constitution but the DNC and Media continue to protect him.
There are now 16 different lawsuits against him to provide proof and he and the DNC is fighting every single one of them.
WHY!!!!!
The 69K question should be why is Barry and the DNC spending tons of money fighting against having to provide anything when it only costs 12 bucks to put this issue to rest.
December 3, 2008
10:56 AM
blogsense writes:
The Big 3's plan for a bailout is nonsense. Their proposals are nothing more than mere cosmetics. Here’s a partial list –
* CEOs working for a $1 per year salary – will that include no stock options or bonuses? I doubt it.
* Reducing sourcing suppliers - so what. How does that save them $?
* Cancel salaried employees’ merit raises – that’s nice. Will the unions follow suit? – I doubt it.
* Sell their corporate jets – big deal
* Invest more to boost fuel efficiency – weren’t they supposed to be doing this all along?
Bottom line – they are being disingenuous with us, the American taxpayer, about their get-well plans. Add to that the antiquated union they have to deal with and we’ll just be throwing good money down a rat-hole.
These guys need to take their queue from the airline industry and restructure their businesses.
December 3, 2008
10:56 AM
Shaggy writes:
""Why is it you arent mad at John McCain for releasing obviously faked medical records?""
"First I have heard of this"
*clarification*
This is the first I have heard of this but if it is true.....
Could have been taken both ways.
December 3, 2008
11:02 AM
JW writes:
"Been out of the office but I am pissed that McCain and the RNC did not bring this up"
Hehe. Do you think they wouldnt have if Obama really wasnt a "natural citizen"? That would have disquallified the guy. Its not like the Ayers or Wright issue, which are meerly character assassination issues. IF Obama wasnt a natrual citizen according to law, he would be INELLIGIBLE. Neither the RNC nor McCain would have failed to bring it up. They would have made DAMN SURE the issue was dealt with.
Which brings us to WHY they arent. Because, dispite the fact that YOU arent satisfied, the RNC and McCain ARE SATISFIED that Obama meets the constitutional requirements for the office of President.
Again, its just you whackos still harping on this.
"he also wouldn't bring up the Rev. Wright issue"
No traction when it was brought up in the past, and McCain was trying to have SOME credibility regarding the "Campaign on the issues" stuff he said. The charges of socialism and overblowing the Ayers issue hurt him in that regard.
"then only at the 11th hour did he bring up William Ayers.
McCain clearly ran a piss poor campaign."
Again, people (other than wingnuts who wouldnt vote Democrat if Reagan came back from the dead and ran as a Dem) werent buying it. Non-issue.
McCain did run a piss poor campaign, Ill agree with that. But it was because he ran on a Bush 3 platform catering to the far right, and he wasnt going to win with it.
Anyway, continue with your rant. Im hoping even YOU get bored with it at some point. Its bs, and Ive been bored with it from day 1.
December 3, 2008
11:05 AM
blogsense writes:
The Big 3's plan for a bailout is nonsense. Their proposals are nothing more than mere cosmetics. Here’s a partial list –
* CEOs working for a $1 per year salary – will that include no stock options or bonuses? I doubt it.
* Reducing sourcing suppliers - so what. How does that save them $?
* Cancel salaried employees’ merit raises – that’s nice. Will the unions follow suit? – I doubt it.
* Sell their corporate jets – big deal
* Invest more to boost fuel efficiency – weren’t they supposed to be doing this all along?
Bottom line – they are being disingenuous with us, the American taxpayer, about their get-well plans. Add to that the antiquated union they have to deal with and we’ll just be throwing good money down a rat-hole.
These guys need to take their queue from the airline industry and restructure their businesses.
December 3, 2008
11:09 AM
SASQUATCH writes:
BENNY:
So please explain how you are better off with a 4-passenger $40,000 Volt versus a $12,000 Hyundai that delivers 35 mpg even if you are exclusively a 40 mile comuter? And that 40 mile comute will require one recharge needed to get you back home...so, Benn,you better get ready for some very late dinners. Sorry, no stopping of at Safeway, Benn...that's another recharge.
That $28,000 price differential buys you over 1,000 Hyundai fill-ups at the pump. Benn, you must be in it for the $7,500 taxpayer subsidy (the other guy's dime) and some "feel-good" environmental statement. Otherwise, the Volt is pure braindamage for the consumer, taxpayer and GM.
And since GM doesn't expect to make any money on the Volt (is GM a non-profit charity?) and it won't sell without the taxpayer subsidy, how is America better off? And what about that warranty, Benn? The replacement parts and replacement components, Benn? The transmission? The trade-in value, Benn? Do you know anything about the Volt's operating costs, repairability and its engeneering reliability and integrity? Hmmmmm?
If you want a washing machine, that's just fine. If you want a bicycle, that's fine too. But if you want a reliable and proven car that really delivers value, Benn, then the Volt is on you.
Those folks pointing at you driving your Merry Voltsmobile, Benn, are also LTAO (laughing).
December 3, 2008
11:47 AM
Shaggy writes:
Like I keep saying numbnuts, I don't know why the RNC has not brought it up.
Maybe they DO know and want to wait until after, I have no idea.
I also have no idea why Barry simply will not produce it to lay this to rest.
You can call whatever you want, I really don't give a shit.
I do give a shit if Barry is violating the Constitution though!
I guess you only respect our constitution when you think a Repub is violating it but could care less if a Dem wipes their ass with it.
"McCain did run a piss poor campaign, Ill agree with that. But it was because he ran on a Bush 3 platform catering to the far right"
You really don't have a clue do you!!!
Not a Q, merely a fact.
You idiot, McCain is so far left he might as well change his affiliation.
He never got the true Conservatives on board dip.
He would have lost in a landslide if it wasn't for Sarah getting the base to back him and many still did not back him.
December 3, 2008
11:51 AM
benn writes:
Wacko squatch,
I wouldn't buy a Volt for $40k, and as I said, I wouldn't buy a Chevy. I haven't see anywhere the quotes a potential price for the Volt, so if you have any sources, that would be great. I wouldn't buy an electric for more than 30k.
You're right, if the Volt costs 40 grand, then it doesn't make sense to buy it over other more fuel-efficient cars.
If they make electrics at $20k, then we're talking.
When I said commute, I meant 40 miles each way, so theoretically it would work for that.
I do know that electric cars in general should be more reliable, and require less maintenance, and less parts than a gas powered vehicle. The electric engine is much simpler, and much easier to produce and maintain. If you burn one out, it is a simple matter to replace. So that is of some benefit to the consumer, and the environment.
The Volt is not perfect, and I won't buy one. But it is a step in the right direction. It provides another options in our free market society. The cars will only improve in cost, range, performance, and reliability as the months pass.
Better than sitting on our hands doing nothing
December 3, 2008
12:04 PM
Uninformed Righty Wingnut writes:
Hey, Sasquatch is right. There will always be cheap oil! We'll just drill, baby, drill! And if we cannot find any here, we'll just send troops to the mideast. We'll never wind up in gas lines, or paying more than we want, or at the receiving end of an embargo, or having to sacrifice our economy.
WTF needs alternatives anyway?
December 3, 2008
12:07 PM
benn writes:
I just read that Mitsubishi is releasing an electric car with 100 mile range, goes 80 mph, and only costs $24k. That is comin
Seems like the Japanese are already getting the hang of it squatch.
Mitsubishi i-MiEV Electric Car
December 3, 2008
12:21 PM
Truth writes:
Shags blathers: "He would have lost in a landslide if it wasn't for Sarah getting the base to back him and many still did not back him."
News flash: Palin was a post-op tranny who couldn't get ANYONE to take her role seriously. She's an idiot who is now going to return to the obscurity to which she belongs.
Shags, you are an utter retard. But amusing always.
December 3, 2008
12:42 PM
JW writes:
"Like I keep saying numbnuts, I don't know why the RNC has not brought it up."
Yea, I know. Its because you believe this kind of stupidity:
"Maybe they DO know and want to wait until after, I have no idea."
WTF? Why? Why would they "Wait until after" they LOST THE ELECTION? What would be the purpose? If they think Obama is not a natural citizen, and therefore doesnt meet the requirements to be president, why would they wait to bring it up until AFTER THEY LOST?
Answer to anyone who isnt straight up RETARDED: They WOULDNT!
"I also have no idea why Barry simply will not produce it to lay this to rest."
This is the other stupidity, and its stupid because he already did. The only people still harping on this are idiots. That means you.
"I guess you only respect our constitution when you think a Repub is violating it but could care less if a Dem wipes their ass with it."
This is a strawman argument. I ALWAYS respect the constitution Shaggy. Bush illegally wiretapping pisses me off. The passage of the MCA of 06 pisses me off. YOU dont mind these things, but I do.
IF there were any REALISTIC questions based in REALITY about whether or not Obama is quallified to be president based on the consitutione THEN I would be pissed, just like you.
BUT...hes already produced A) a birth certificate which has been verified by AUTHORITIES even if its still questioned by RETARDS and B) Hes been vetted by the people who would SCREAM BLOODY MURDER if they werent sure hes quallified (The RNC and McCain campaigns).
I ALWAYS respect the constitution Shaggy. Its just that in this case there is no reason to believe there is a constitutional issue regarding Obama's eligibility. Unless you are retarded. which I am not (and you are).
"You idiot, McCain is so far left he might as well change his affiliation."
Yea, youre right. I remember him talking about raising taxes and pro choice and putting up liberal judges for the SCOTUS and pretty much just pimping communism!
Wait...no I dont! I remember him talking about tax cuts, small government, pro life, constructionist judges, blah blah EVERY DAMN TALKING POINT OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY SINCE REAGAN.
Youre just a flaming idiot Shaggy.
December 3, 2008
1:01 PM
Shaggy writes:
Ummmmm NO dipshit, he has NOT produced ANYTHING except his drivers license and Marriage license.
HE HAS NEVER, NOT ONCE, EVER, ZILCH, NOTTA, EVER, EVER PRODUCED HIS BC.
He is fighting tooth and nails to keep from producing it and if you weren't such a flaming liberal in love with the plastic messiah you would know this.
lets say it one more time.
BARRY HAS NOT EVER PRODUCED HIS BC....EVER.
Jeebus dipshit even the court did not dismiss the case because of the merits.
The Judge dismissed it saying the attorney did not have substance to bring it.
In other words that was a polite way of saying he was not interested in hearing the case because he is also has a crush on the man child.
His ruling was wrong, anyone has "substance" to file a lawsuit and have it heard as long as it isn't frivolous and if you weren't such a partisian stooge you would understand this.
Let me ask you a yes or no question and no need to elaborate. Just a yes or no Q...got it?
If Obama does not meet the criteria the Constitution states, should he excuse himself?
Remember, just a simple yes or no will do.
December 3, 2008
1:04 PM
John writes:
Great Idea: bring back lee ioacoca
ask him what to do. Maybe Jerry yang could figure something out. Hes not busy these days
December 3, 2008
1:36 PM
Shaggy writes:
Ummmmm JW, Barry has never ever ever produced his BC.
You need to come to grips bro.
The DNC is spending a fortune to keep from producing for some reason.
I think I know why.
I think you even know why but refuse to acknowledged it.
Select ignorance and denial is not bliss.
December 3, 2008
1:44 PM
JW writes:
"Let me ask you a yes or no question and no need to elaborate. Just a yes or no Q...got it?
If Obama does not meet the criteria the Constitution states, should he excuse himself?
Remember, just a simple yes or no will do. "
Yes.
Unfortunately for you he A) has indeed produced his BC and B)
"State officials say there’s no doubt Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.
Health Department Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino says she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama’s original birth certificate."
http://www.starbulletin.com/news/breaking/33670554.html
Reasonable people have put this issue to rest Shaggy.
That said, the SCOTUS is due to decide whether or not to hear the issue in the next few weeks, so that should settle it once and for all. You can keep your idiotic hope alive dispite all evidence till then (and probably after. Reality isnt what you are interested here. Just freaking out).
December 3, 2008
1:45 PM
Shaggy writes:
Posting here has become a crap shoot anymore.
Maybe it will or maybe it won't.
I posted my 101 and it finally posted with my 136.
Maybe Mark had it shut down to post his prairie dog thread?
December 3, 2008
1:46 PM
SASQUATCH writes:
"If they make electrics at $20k, then we're talking."
Like Mike Myers said in the movie "Wayne's World"...."When monkeys fly out of my ass."
And they do make 20K electrics, but the extension cord that goes directly into that 14-smoke stack power-plant that you don't want within 700 miles of your house adds another $75,000.
The Volt is on you!
December 3, 2008
1:47 PM
jay writes:
are you still spouting crazy talk about obama's birth certificate, shaggy?
i'm completely serious when i say that i hope you see professional help for your mental illness.
i'm honestly a little worried for you.
December 3, 2008
1:58 PM
SASQUATCH writes:
ENOUGH OF THIS OBAMA-BIRTH CERTIFICATE B.S.
When a hippie chick from Kansas hooks up with a Nigerian goat-herder, what right does anyone have to expect that the offspring will be accompanied by a birth certificate? Get a grip, folks!
Enough!
December 3, 2008
2:10 PM
Shaggy writes:
jay and the rest of you Liberals who got your panties stolen you can now go on-line and claim them.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/dec/03/boulder-cops-seek-help-identifying-womens-underwea/
Thats right jay, Obama still refuses to comply with the Constitution, it is crazy
December 3, 2008
2:23 PM
Shaggy writes:
Didn't see your post JW,
O.K. so lets say he was born in Hawaii.
After he was born he moved to Indonesia right?
Right.
He attentive School there right?
Right.
At the time he attended School there the Law was such that he would have to become an Indonesian Citizen in order to go to School.
He also went to Pakistan at a time when it was illegal for ANY American to enter but not an Indonesian.
This means he has dual Citizenship's and unless he formally denounced in writing his Indonesian Citizenship, and there is no record of this, he is still in violation of the Constitution.
One theory why he will not produce any of his records is because he used his foreign Citizenship to help finance his elite Schooling which was very expensive for a poor black man.
Either way, Barry is still in violation of the Constitution.
December 3, 2008
2:27 PM
jay writes:
"Obama still refuses to comply with the Constitution"
?
are you kidding me? we debunked this myth a month ago!
December 3, 2008
3:03 PM
JW writes:
"O.K. so lets say he was born in Hawaii."
Then he would be a natural citizen of the United States, over 35 years of age, and we are DONE with the "compliance with the constitution" discussion. Or, we should be, but no. You have MORE bs.
"After he was born he moved to Indonesia right?
Right."
Right.
"He attentive School there right?
Right."
Sure. (I have no idea if you've got this sequence of events correct. I just dont care.)
"At the time he attended School there the Law was such that he would have to become an Indonesian Citizen in order to go to School."
If you say so.
"He also went to Pakistan at a time when it was illegal for ANY American to enter but not an Indonesian."
Ok.
"This means he has dual Citizenship's and unless he formally denounced in writing his Indonesian Citizenship, and there is no record of this, he is still in violation of the Constitution. "
Really? How so?
"One theory why he will not produce any of his records is because he used his foreign Citizenship to help finance his elite Schooling which was very expensive for a poor black man."
That is a theory all right. Unfortunately, again if there were any merrit you would have the RNC all over it. They arent. Its just the serious "Fringe Whacko" contingent of the wingnut brigade that is STILL up in arms over this BULLSHIT.
"Either way, Barry is still in violation of the Constitution. "
Again, HOW?
Remember, youve now agreed that he was born in Hawaii. Lets not throw that issue back in and confuse the discussion.
If Obama was born in Hawaii, how is he still in violation of the constitution?
December 3, 2008
3:47 PM
benn writes:
Nice job diagramming Shag's jumps in logic.
The funny thing is that you (shaggy) will believe all kinds of crazy, unrealistic, completely fabricated, unsubstantiated bullshit - but you refuse to believe the reality that everyone with authority has already shown Obama to be a citizen, and in-compliance with the qualifications necessary for the POTUS.
December 3, 2008
4:08 PM
Shaggy writes:
If he is a natural born Citizen why does he refuse to produce his BC then?
Not only does he refuse he and the DNC are spending hundreds of thousands to fighting it.
Sure would quite people like me up.
"(I have no idea if you've got this sequence of events correct. I just dont care.)"
None of your ilk care, that is why he wasn't properly vetted.
Remember, the case wasn't dismissed as saying he has already provided it.
December 3, 2008
4:22 PM
JW writes:
"If he is a natural born Citizen why does he refuse to produce his BC then?"
DAMNIT!! We already dealt with this Shaggy!
"None of your ilk care, that is why he wasn't properly vetted"
Shaggy, I dont CARE about where he went to school because IT HAS NO BEARING ON WHETHER OR NOT HE IS A NATURAL CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES, you idiot!
Anyway, youre a f*$kwit jackass about this. Go ahead and keep frothing at the mouth. Youre going to get NOTHING out of the government.
Obama will be sworn in, and proceed to turn this into a socialistic paradise. You will lose your business as a glorified handyman through lack of real skills and ability to pay your fair share in taxes (90%). After that you will be forced to go on welfare, at which point you will become a socialist yourself, screaming about what you are "owed" until you die of liver failure due to a propensity to swill cheal rotgut booze.
The future is BLEAK for you Shaggy.
December 3, 2008
5:16 PM
jay writes:
seriously, shaggy.
you need to get some help.
December 3, 2008
8:20 PM
ML writes:
Shaggy is still on the birth certificate issue??? Get a life, man! Geez, is there a full moon tonight, or what?
December 4, 2008
8:37 AM
Shaggy writes:
Just keeping the integrity of the Constitution jay, you got a problem with that?
Instead of attacking me directly, why don't you try to answer my many questions?
**LISTEN UP KIDS
BARRY HAS NOT PRODUCED HIS BC REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU ALL THINK....GOT IT?????
INSTEAD OF ATTACKING ME, PRODUCE ME FACTS!!!
REMEMBER, I AM NOT THE ONE DECEIVING THE PEOPLE.
YOU ALL SHOULD BE DIRECTING YOUR ANGER AT BARRY, NOT ME.
December 4, 2008
8:55 AM
SASQUATCH writes:
$$$$$$$$$$$$...RE-VOLTING...$$$$$$$$$$
1-Bail out Chrysler that is owned by Cerbus Capital (run by former Sec Treas. Snow), a private equity firm?
2-Bail out Ford that claims it can survive?
3-Bail out the UAW with its $75/p/h anchor?
4-Bail out lousy managements who helped to cause the problems and now plan to stay?
RE-VOLTING!
December 4, 2008
9:33 AM
SASQUATCH writes:
The last time GM brought a highly touted, hyped and hooplaed company SAVIOR to market, it was named the Vega!
BBWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
December 4, 2008
9:43 AM
Shaggy writes:
Hey Tree,
This morning was the first time I got to drive my new Subaru in the snow and ice and it passed the smell test with flying colors. I luv it:)
I saw your post on another thread and appreciate the offer to buy your extra set of winter tires but not sure if they will fit.
I have 205/50-17 vs your 225/70-15.
Mine are the low profile Potenzas with the air pressure valve stem sensors.
Plus I just had some expensive Dental work done and x-mas is coming up and the poor economy and JW says my future is bleak so I better weather the storm this winter.
December 4, 2008
9:57 AM
George Hayduke writes:
Do the automakers deserve a bailout? Under what conditions? Would a bankruptcy plunge the country into depression? Is a bailout throwing good money after bad?
I'm not sure they deserve anything under any conditions. I have no idea if a bankruptcy would cause the country to sink into a depression. I know I'm already depressed so what the hell! As to whether it would be throwing good money after bad, I expect that would be true. The automakers need to evolve and it would seem to me that a bailout allows for too much of the status quo.
The unholy trinity of Madison Avenue, auto manufacturers, and cheap credit lending, has created a monster that has outlived it's usefulness. Let them fail, the short term pain for most of us will be overshadowed by huge long term gains in new industries and jobs. It's called economic Darwinism, the age of the dinosaurs is over.
December 4, 2008
9:58 AM
JW writes:
I said your future was bleak for a reason Shaggy. According to you, there is going to be a president who doesnt meet the requirements of the constitution in the White House, who is a socialist/commie!
So, as a red blooded "republican" free market business owning kind of guy, obviously your future IS bleak. Get ready for your 90% personal tax rate to go along with your 50% business tax rate (on revenue of course, thats socialism!) and of course that doubling of your payroll tax liability...AND youre gona have to provide full health insurance for all your employees, hell, might as well throw in paying all your employees car insurance too! Right? Guys a raging socialist...
Obviously, You are SCREWED buddy!
December 4, 2008
10:25 AM
jay writes:
so shaggy, just to clarify, you believe that obama has not produced a document from the state of hawaii that satisfies the constitutional requirement that he is a us citizen?
do i have that right?
December 4, 2008
10:47 AM
Tbone writes:
I think the conservative townhall.com says it best:
"This whole notion of Obama's birth certificate, however, is something I've been meaning to write about anyway, as I have grown very tired of seeing a few of our commenters dwell on this ridiculous rumor.
I am of the opinion that anyone advancing the notion that Obama is not a citizen, and thus not qualified to become president, is actually undermining the conservative cause. Sadly, this ridiculous "conspiracy theory" will only serve to undermine the legitimate attacks on Obama, by casting us all in the role of zealots.
All indications are that Obama was born in the state of Hawaii. His mother was clearly an American citizen. In many regards, Obama has more of a claim to be eligible for the presidency than did Barry Goldwater (born in the "Arizona territory"), George Romney (born in Mexico), or John McCain (born in the Panama Canal Zone)...
There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize Obama, but dwelling on this ridiculous notion will only serve to undermine them."
http://townhall.com/blog/g/52f43ea0-52bc-4d52-8a3b-26d8d3e1d26a
Let the inter-party fighting continue!
December 4, 2008
10:49 AM
Shaggy writes:
"there is going to be a president who doesnt meet the requirements of the constitution in the White House"
All I want is for him to show proof he meets the requirements of the Constitution.
Why is this such a big deal if has nothing to hide?
I don't get it.
After all, we don't want another President spending his term in a Court room defining what the word "it" means do we?
"who is a socialist/commie!"
"Spreading the wealth" certainly is not a Capitalist idealism.
BTW,
I came up with a solution to my demise, I will take a page out of the Democratic hand book and close my doors and let BIG brother and people who work hard, go to School and get MBA's and become succesful take care of me.
I'll send you my address so we can bypass the communist system so you can just pay me direct.
It'll save time and I am sure you won't want me waiting for my handout.
Jay,
The only documents he has produced have been said to be fake by many experts.
He has not shown his original or a copy of his original BC.
That is why 16 different parties are suing him.
The Court did not dismiss the first Lawsuit for lack of evidence nor did she say it was frivolous.
Only two people in Hawaii have said they have seen it and that is hardly credible.
December 4, 2008
10:50 AM
gr8fuldude writes:
Back to the topic at hand, that being Humble Pie, cars and general hardship:
Working every day of my life
See what you can under candlelight
A dollar a day don't go so far
My mowan's alive and I know she strive for me
I know that times are bad but I'm so glad
My woman come back to me and soon we be three
A dollar a day don't go so far
My mowan's alive and I know she strive for me
Put me on a stick shift
Put me on a stick shift
Seems to fit the day and age.
December 4, 2008
12:09 PM
jay writes:
"All I want is for him to show proof he meets the requirements of the Constitution.
Why is this such a big deal if has nothing to hide? I don't get it."
so...again shaggy...are you under the impression that obama hasn't supplied the necessary document from the state of hawaii that fulfills the constitutional requirements for the office of the presidency?
stop running.
December 4, 2008
12:59 PM
JW writes:
"BTW,
I came up with a solution to my demise, I will take a page out of the Democratic hand book and close my doors and let BIG brother and people who work hard, go to School and get MBA's and become succesful take care of me."
Uh, well, you can try that I suppose. I dont know if I would rely on that though. Last person to reform welfare was a Dem. You might find yourself in a position where your handout came with a requirement to work, and then youre screwed because youve got zilch for skills. Find yourself pouring concrete or cleaning sewers. I think if I was you, Id maybe chill out and see if I couldnt keep my glorified handyman business open for a bit, before I went running for the Public Tit.
""Spreading the wealth" certainly is not a Capitalist idealism."
Yes, becaue Capitalism is all about concentrating the wealth in the hands of only a few.
You f*#kwits should really take a look at youre stupid "marching orders". This country has ALWAYS been about spreading the wealth you jackass. You know, "anyone can get rich here", "anyone can have the American dream".
America is great because we spread the wealth through competition and CREATION of wealth. That REQUIRES taxes, because creation of wealth is built on infrastructure, educated workers, and the rule of law. Government provides ALL of those. Take them away...and we are Somalia.
BTW, raising the tax rate on people making over $250k from 36% to 39% doesnt take us from "Capitalism" to "Socialism" unless you really think 3% makes that big a difference.
And youre a total jackass, so you probably do.
December 4, 2008
1:56 PM
Shaggy writes:
jay are you such a mental midget you cannot understand that I have said Barry has not produced his BC when I have clearly stated that several times?
Again, if you really are a mental midget I apologize, not to you but to the rest of your ilk.
"glorified handyman business"
But I don't own a handyman service and if I did, why did you say I don't know "zilch" for skills?
You are so confusing when you try to strawman label me.
I wished you would quit flip flopping like your little butt-munch Barry.
In one sentence you say I am stupid and in the next you say I am not stupid.
Then you tell me you can't stand me then you say you would have a beer with me.
Which I am positive I would get stuck with the bill...
Liberals are like women, no matter how hard you try to figure them out they throw you a curve ball and it's back to the drawing board.
December 4, 2008
2:29 PM
JW writes:
"Liberals are like women, no matter how hard you try to figure them out they throw you a curve ball and it's back to the drawing board."
Must be why you "conservatives" keep getting busted with having sex with men.
December 4, 2008
2:39 PM
Shaggy writes:
OMG...JW told another funny.
At least we provide proof of who we are!
December 4, 2008
2:41 PM
jay writes:
shaggy, surely you realize that he doesn't have to produce an original birth certificate.
i don't have my original either.
he, produced a replacement document, like i have, from his state of birth.
that document fulfills the requirements set by the constitution for someone to hold the office of the united states president.
do you, or do you not believe that is the case?
stop running.
December 4, 2008
2:55 PM
Observer writes:
"Liberals are like women, no matter how hard you try to figure them out they throw you a curve ball and it's back to the drawing board."
This would explain why Shaggy goes home every night, not to a woman, but to a keggerator, a porn collection and a number of Bill Saluga comedy tapes (that DVD thing is just a passing fad, and VHS will be here to stay, you know!)
December 4, 2008
3:22 PM
Shaggy writes:
What document are you talking about jay?
Barry has only produced his marriage and drivers license....thats it.
However he has produced a FAKE. That must be the one you are referring to.
It was so bad it didn't even have the raised stamp seal and wasn't even signed.
Also missing was the physicians name.
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12939.htm
December 4, 2008
5:31 PM
jay writes:
lol...so now we're getting to the heart of shaggy's argument.
the document produced by the state of hawaii that fulfills the constitutional requirements is "fake".
you really can't make this stuff up.
wait a minute...sure you can.
rush would be proud of you shaggy.
keep up the good work.
December 4, 2008
5:36 PM
iceman7 writes:
Shaggy,
why do you bother with Jay? He is so repetitive. little to no imagination.
You are either:
1)Ignorant
2)Bigoted
3)His favorite was that a "Strawman" that just went by.
4)get some help
5) Now "Stop Running": what the hell that means only Jay knows.
He actually thinks of himself as a prof at CU.
December 4, 2008
6:13 PM
Shaggy writes:
Iceman,
I might add:
"that has been debunked" and "the vast majority" :)
jay,
Is that the first you heard about the FAKE "certificate of live birth" that has been debunked by the vast majority of experts?
Please try to keep up with the rest of the third graders or I will send a note home!
December 4, 2008
6:58 PM
jay writes:
don't pout, people...it doesn't help your argument.
i'll ask again shaggy.
feel free to answer too "iceman".
do you believe that the document supplied by the state of hawaii that fulfills the constitutional requirements to be fake?
is the federal election commission in on it in addition to the folks at the state of hawaii?
surely if it wasn't a credible document they wouldn't have said as much, right?
December 5, 2008
8:18 AM
Tbone writes:
jay-
C'mon man. It's a huge conspiracy, with the state of illinois, the state of hawaii, the country of kenya, the country of africa (thanks, Palin!), the country of indonesia, and the entire US gov't in on it.
It's really that simple.
Oh, also, Obama went back in time to put his birth announcement in a local hawaiian paper. This is very simple stuff, man.
December 5, 2008
9:09 AM
Shaggy writes:
"do you believe that the document supplied by the state of hawaii that fulfills the constitutional requirements to be fake?"
Let me try to make this real simple for the simpletons.
The BC that was produced, was a computer generated one.
When Barry was born, there were no computers in Hospitals spitting out BC's.
There was no signature on the computer generated one and the physician was not mentioned.
It has been debunked as a fake by several experts.
There has not been ONE expert saying it was legitimate.
Now the same Hospitals(two)that said he was born there are now saying they have no record of him or his mother.
I wished you guys would do a little research, all your doing is embarrassing yourselves.
Please keep up!
Jay quit asking me the same damn stupid question over and over when you know I said it was a fake and he HAS NOT PRODUCED A LEGITIMATE DOCUMENT!!!!
Are we clear yet?
This case goes in front of the Supreme Court today, which I am sure they don't have the balls to touch it. Which is a disgrace for America and American values!
December 5, 2008
9:22 AM
benn writes:
Wow - you really have lost it Shaggy....
December 5, 2008
9:42 AM
Shaggy writes:
Tell me where I wrong Benny,
All you do is attack me but have nothing to back you up.
Please tell me where I am wrong and prove it for once.
All you nutters do is just dismiss it as false but never try to debunk anything I say.
Even Barry won't come forward and debunk anything.
Why is this??
hmmmm
Could it be that he can't?
December 5, 2008
10:05 AM
JW writes:
"The BC that was produced, was a computer generated one."
So what this really comes down to is that you are actually stupid enough to think the scan of Obama's BC is all there is, even though there are TONS of accounts of people going to his campaign headquarters and having the physical document in their hands.
Oh, and lets not forget this: Health Department Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino says she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama’s original birth certificate.
Youre a fucking IDIOT Shaggy. He was born in Hawaii. Any sensible person would at this point just man up and deal with it. Instead, you have decided to believe in totally fabricated BS because you JUST. Cant. STAND. THE. FACT. THAT. A. DEMOCRAT. WILL. BE. THE. NEXT.....
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
On a side note its pretty fucking funnny. You and the "9/11 was an inside job" lunatics should get together and form a coalition. "Ill back your rabid bullshit if you back mine!"
December 5, 2008
10:34 AM
Shaggy writes:
"even though there are TONS of accounts of people going to his campaign headquarters and having the physical document in their hands."
No, wrong again, only two people in Hawaii have claimed to have seen it in person.
Or
Prove it.
We do know he has produced a FAKE ONE.
Maybe the "tons" of people were looking at the FAKE one and beings they are Barry supporters they were to stupid to realize it was a FAKE?
LoL too funny.
Please name these "tons" of people..hehehe
"Health Department Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino says she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama’s original birth certificate."
And what kind of credibility do these Obamamaniacs have?
Why won't they produce it if they have it?
Why won't Barry go ahead and tell them to produce it to let this thing die?
Can't believe you expect me to believe what someone who has a love affair with the plastic messiah says.
Your an idiot.
"He was born in Hawaii"
Then prove it!
That is all I ask.
"Youre a fucking IDIOT Shaggy. He was born in Hawaii."
I really could care less what you call me.
Very typical of Liberals to attack instead of backing anything up
He has not produced a Legitimate copy or the original. This is a fact whether you like it or not.
Fcat is instead of Barry just coming out and producing this it is now in front of the Supreme Court and is gaining traction as we speak.
But instead he is spending thousands upon thousands fighting against it.
Why?
Why won't any of you answer why he is doing this?
I hear the place in Kenya where many people, including his Grandma and Uncle, say they watched him being born is becoming quite the popular shrine.
December 5, 2008
11:38 AM
Anonymous writes:
"Very typical of Liberals to attack instead of backing anything up"
That about sums it up.
December 5, 2008
11:54 AM
jay writes:
shaggy, you still seem to be under the impression that obama has to produce his original birth certificate to qualify to hold the office of president.
you realize he doesn't, right?
i no longer have my original...but rather...as obama has produced...a certified document from the state in which i was born that fulfills all requirements of an original bc.
are you following me here sparky or are you just going to do the willful ignorance dance for another couple of days?
December 5, 2008
1:21 PM
benn writes:
lol shaggy
""Health Department Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino says she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama’s original birth certificate."
And what kind of credibility do these Obamamaniacs have?""
Umm, maybe because Ms. Fukino and Mr. Onaka review documents such as this on a regular business? In fact, the registrar of vital statistics main job is to handle these records:
http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/index.html
Is there anyone MORE credible then he is?
Or how about the DIRECTOR of the Health Department of Hawaii... wouldn't she know a bit more about what constitutes a valid document.
But no shaggy, you will continue to trust heresay from some wacko fringe conspiracy theorists, despite the fact that the truth is slapping you in the face.
This is the exact reason that Obama doesn't address this anymore. HE ALREADY HAS. At this point, you won't believe ANYTHING, so why should he debase himself by getting into the mud with you?
Smarten up shaggster
December 6, 2008
9:28 AM
Shaggy writes:
jay, surely you aren't saying Barry doesn't have to meet the requirements of the Constitution are you?
Sorry bennygirl, Barry has not provided anything as of yet.
December 7, 2008
6:05 PM
jay writes:
"Barry has not provided anything as of yet."
nope.
the state of hawaii has proviced a document that fulfills all the constitutional requirements necessary to hold the office of the united states of america.
you need help shaggy.
seriously.
December 8, 2008
8:44 AM
benn writes:
Uh oh shags... the SCOTUS rejected the case
/tear
December 8, 2008
9:17 AM
Mark Wolf writes:
Please migrate your comments on the Obama/birth certificate/citizenship issue to this new post on the Supreme Court's decision.
http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/rockytalklive/archives/2008/12/supreme_court_wont_hear_is_oba.html
thanks