October 30, 2007 11:46 AM
Beggars' Night battle
GO TO COMMENTS to see how our spooky LIVE CHAT unfolded in real time.
(Read from the bottom-up.)
And for something completely different, check out this posting from ColoradoPols.com
Tonight in Des Moines, Iowa, it's "Beggars' Night."
Since this is ground-zero in the frighteningly long race for the White House, it's somehow fitting that the local Halloween tradition reminds us of a presidential debate.
Here's how the Des Moines Register described it in a 2006 article:
"In most places, the Halloween tradition goes like this: The kid says, 'Trick-or-treat.' The homeowner gives him candy.
In Des Moines and surrounding suburbs, it's more like this: The kid says, 'Trick or treat.' The homeowner says 'What's your trick?' Then the kid tells a joke of the sort usually found on Bazooka gum wrappers.
Why didn't the skeleton cross the road?
He didn't have any guts.
Whether or not the homeowner is amused, the kid gets candy."
Yes, here in the home of the nation's first presidential caucuses, Iowans demand attempts at humor -- from helpless children and also hapless presidential candidates.
And so, we suggest that all the Democratic presidential contenders trot out their best, new material at tonight's televised debate from Pennsylvania.
It starts at 9 p.m. on MSNBC. HERE'S THE PREVIEW from NBC's "First Read."
HERE is a preview from one of tonight's live-blogging participants, Reid Wilson of RealClearPolitics.com
But lest you think this will be just another sugar-coated slug fest, there's a horror story developing on the Internet.
The ultimate long-shot, former Alaska Sen. Mike Gravel, is seething over his exclusion. His fans have been haunting MSNBC's web site.
And, don't be afraid, but his campaign is even selling "Mike's Hellraiser Package" of campaign goodies HERE.
And tonight, when Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton and pals are exchanging Beggars Night jokes, tricks and treats, on television, Gravel's gang will be holding their own online event -- explained HERE.
This promises to be too much fun.
So at 9 p.m. Eastern Time -- that's 8 p.m. Iowa time or 7 p.m. in Colorado -- we'll be monitoring the Gravel festivities (HAPPENING HERE) and providing real-time updates in the COMMENTS section below.
We'll also keep an eye on the televised, MSNBC debate from the usual suspects, and would welcome your real-time commentary in the COMMENTS.
(Read from the bottom-up and refresh your screen very often.)
Here is the live video feed from Gravel's web site:
October 30, 2007
9:41 PM
maryj writes:
Ron Paul folks have the biggest post debate banners.
October 30, 2007
9:33 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Here's how Ambinder's analysis will play out:
Edwards will get the bigger bump in the polls. And Obama will get a bump in fundraising.
October 30, 2007
9:27 PM
M.E. writes:
Ambinder rocks. And that jibes with what we discussed here as Obama was making his more subtle, aka "polite," jabs and Edwards was making his more "blunt" points.
October 30, 2007
9:25 PM
M.E. writes:
LITTWIN: The laughter "issue" was way overblown in the media. However, it is kind of funny (not ha-ha funny, but funny nonetheless) that there could be such uproarious laughter in one debate and none tonight.
Despite all the hype and the intense media focus on attacks tonight, the actual words spoken by the candidates are not so far off from what they've been saying repeatedly up to this point.
In the post-debate coverage on MSNBC, Chris Matthews is focusing on two themes: UFOs and Clinton's alleged "double-talk."
October 30, 2007
9:21 PM
mike littwin writes:
From The Atlantic's Marc Ambinder:
Bottom line, before all the analysis:
Obama confronted Clinton in his way, Edwards confronted Clinton in his way, and none of us writing about the debate can say with accuracy which approach voters prefer.
In this discordant symphony – ‘A Clintonian Lament’ -- John Edwards’s instruments of persuasion were sharper and louder; Barack Obama’s were more resonant and more subtle.
In music terms, Edwards played the French horn; Obama played the violin. Or, as the New Yorker’s Ryan Lizza told me during a commercial break, “It’s the difference between someone who goes to law school and becomes a prosecutor and someone who goes to law school and becomes a law professor.”
October 30, 2007
9:19 PM
M.E. writes:
In the post-debate show on MSNBC, New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson just implied -- then stated -- that the federal government was withholding documents about a UFO crash in Roswell, N.M., in the 1950s.
Ah, the things governors will do to promote their tourism industries...
October 30, 2007
9:18 PM
maryj writes:
ha ha, & the debate continues w/Chris Matthews & Bill Richardson on Roswell & UFO's oh brother, with all the problems we face UFO's!!! sad.
October 30, 2007
9:16 PM
mike littwin writes:
Wow, Clinton really blew it on the driver's license question, giving Edwards and Obama an opportunity to say, Hey, what do you know -- she really does double-talk.
Clinton did a good job the entire night by defending herself without looking too defensive. She didn't get personal. She didn't do the Hillary laugh. She just gave strong answersto tough questions.
And then . . . She decides it's too risky to answer the licenses-for-illegal-immigrants question.
The big question is whether Edwards, who was really good for most of the night, and Obama, who got better as it went along, can find a way to keep going after Clinton without looking as if the attacks are gratuitous.
October 30, 2007
9:14 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Thanks, as always ME. Lots of fun being the lone GOPer tonight.
One other thing, I thought Dodd was good tonight - but he didn't say anything memorable. So, Biden wins the second tier. Edwards won the top tier.
October 30, 2007
9:11 PM
maryj writes:
Thanks for the blog ME, hey Media liz
live in your illusion, and grab a bone.
October 30, 2007
9:11 PM
maryj writes:
Thanks for the blog ME, hey Media liz
live in your illusion, and grab a bone.
October 30, 2007
9:07 PM
M.E. writes:
Howard Fineman says Clinton really lost the debate on the immigration question, when her rivals got to point to her answer as "too cute by half," evasive, etc.
We'll see if Edwards and Obama (or someone else) can benefit, even if the anti-Clinton faction has so many choices.
October 30, 2007
9:07 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Final thoughts:
Aside from the Space Odyssey moment with Kucinich - I think Edwards probably performed the best. He was consistent, cogent, and very direct.
In second, Obama. He outperformed my expectations.
I think Biden has several great moments that will be the SOTs for tomorrow's news.
Hillary Clinton lost ground. She looked too much like a pol, and not with the charm of her husband. The GOP is going to slam her on immigration.
Richardson performed very poorly, far below his last couple of appearances.
Watch the polls - if Obama or Edwards spike after tonight in Iowa - they could ding Hillary's armour.
October 30, 2007
9:04 PM
maryj writes:
Sen. Clinton is setting up a confrontation with CNN's Lou Dobbs by siging with New York Gov. Spitzer on the question of drivers' licenses or identification cards for illegal immigrants. Watch -- this portion of the debate will be ALL OVER Dobbs' show tomorrow.
Republicans will make great hay over it -- just as Obama is now, saying he couldn't tell whether she was for it or against it.
ME just another illusion, illegals get ID & d/ls at will here in the GOP state of TX , like the fear the GOP spews.
October 30, 2007
9:04 PM
mike littwin writes:
I'm sorry, I nodded off and woke up during the middle of an episode of Star Trek.
October 30, 2007
9:04 PM
M.E. writes:
Brian Williams: "This is what happens late at night in a hot room..."
He asks Obama what Halloween costume he will wear.
And, ha, ha, ha. He says a Mitt Romney mask.
October 30, 2007
9:02 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
This debate is getting ridiculous. Thank god it's over.
October 30, 2007
9:01 PM
M.E. writes:
And now they're talking about decriminalizing marijuana -- as Dodd says they should do.
The distinctions between the Gravel event and the MSNBC debate are starting to blur.
October 30, 2007
9:01 PM
maryj writes:
I believe Edwards just lost a large percentage of the college vote. oh well.
October 30, 2007
9:00 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Reid:
I'd like to know if the Obama folks feel like he made his case tonight, or do they feel like he backed off the NYT interview.
October 30, 2007
9:00 PM
maryj writes:
Oh, Obama, what a great turn of a phrase, I think he scored on that turn, talk about life on earth.
why would russert waste time with a ? like that?
October 30, 2007
8:58 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Wow. 22008: Things are coming off the rails.
Dave in Oregon: I agree. Vote 'em off.
October 30, 2007
8:58 PM
M.E. writes:
Kucinich is being asked to recount seeing a UFO.
NOW THIS IS A PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!
Watch out Roswell, N.M. He says he's opening a headquarters there.
October 30, 2007
8:56 PM
M.E. writes:
Sen. Clinton is setting up a confrontation with CNN's Lou Dobbs by siging with New York Gov. Spitzer on the question of drivers' licenses or identification cards for illegal immigrants. Watch -- this portion of the debate will be ALL OVER Dobbs' show tomorrow.
Republicans will make great hay over it -- just as Obama is now, saying he couldn't tell whether she was for it or against it.
October 30, 2007
8:56 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Everyone is running to the right. Comprehensive Immigration Reform? Ahhh... finally something the Dems and George W. Bush agree on. (me too, though I'm no sure about Spitzer's move))
Where is Tom Tancredo when ya need him?
Oops. Belay my last. Edwards and Obama are drawing the distinction on Immigration.
October 30, 2007
8:56 PM
maryj writes:
Oh i am lol, because here in TX, in my short term survival job at DPS, a d/l has been issued to anyone who can post the fee.
Yes, in the great state of bush/ perry, d/l's issued to all, with the worst faked foreign birth certificates I ever saw.
Troopers response to ?'s docs,. just issue it.
October 30, 2007
8:54 PM
M.E. writes:
AS THE DEBATE WINDS TOWARD A CLOSE,
please offer some extended thoughts on:
* Who gained ground?
* Who lost ground?
* Did anyone land a real jab against the national front-runner, Sen. Clinton?
October 30, 2007
8:53 PM
Dave from Oregon writes:
Job the debates out to Simon Fuller & Nigel Lythgoe, i.e. have one candidate voted off each time like Idol et al.
October 30, 2007
8:52 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
All:
Apologies, I didn't make myself clear. In the spin room, I plan to ask candidate surrogates about specific conflicts, to clarify some answers, et cetera. My first question, to Edwards people: Did Obama show tonight that he can fight back against Republican attacks in a general election?
I'm betting they're going to want to distinguish themselves as much as they can.
So, any debate-related questions? I do have to file at some point...
October 30, 2007
8:52 PM
maryj writes:
I;m throwing Media whatever a virtual bone to chew on, to deter the tactics.
October 30, 2007
8:51 PM
Lynda Waddington writes:
Perhaps that's why they didn't ask Gravel to join them -- they didn't want to bore him.
October 30, 2007
8:50 PM
maryj writes:
Sorry for the press corps restlessness, however I am not bored.
Hope the debate on the variety of issues continues.
October 30, 2007
8:50 PM
mike littwin writes:
If they divided the debates into isues -- say, 40 minutes on Iraq, 40 minutes on domestic issues, 40 minutes for bashing Hillary Clinton -- then you might keep the pulse higher.
October 30, 2007
8:49 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
The debate started off really strong... with Edwards and Obama going straight for Hillary. Everyone is back on their very best behavior.
The debates should be shorter - if only to prevent Kucinich from mentioning another Bill number.
October 30, 2007
8:46 PM
maryj writes:
I'd like to hear any candidate asked about what new ideas to end energy dependence?
similar to the race to the moon, introduced by JFK, thinking out of the box, new ideas.
October 30, 2007
8:45 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
Just noticing: The press corps is getting restless. Maybe shorter debates are in order.
October 30, 2007
8:45 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Reid... yes, it's weird to have a thing for Biden. I'm a sucker for a man with a plan. Especially one for Iraq. It's a shame he hasn't capitalized on the 75-23 vote for his plan.
But I do love the guy. He rocks.
October 30, 2007
8:45 PM
M.E. writes:
On his live video feed, Mike Gravel just complained that the MSNBC debate is boring him. On this and maybe this issue alone: does anybody agree with him?
That's a serious question. Did this much-hyped Heavyweight boxing match live up to its billing as the night when everyone would take off the gloves and go after the national front-runner?
October 30, 2007
8:45 PM
M.E. writes:
On his live video feed, Mike Gravel just complained that the MSNBC debate is boring him. On this and maybe this issue alone: does anybody agree with him?
That's a serious question. Did this much-hyped Heavyweight boxing match live up to its billing as the night when everyone would take off the gloves and go after the national front-runner?
October 30, 2007
8:43 PM
maryj writes:
Reid I want to ask of any candidate, what new ideas can we bring to end dependence on foreign oil?
In the same manner of the race to the moon, thinking out of the box?
October 30, 2007
8:43 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Reid, righto on Haley Barbour...
I read your piece. Absolutely agree on Landrieu. I don't think the Dems have lost their electoral edge over the GOP. I do believe that their use of the Katrina issue has been blunted though.
Goodness knows, the GOP has given them plenty of ammunition.
October 30, 2007
8:41 PM
M.E. writes:
Reid:
Ask all the candidates this question:
* "DID YOU MISS MIKE GRAVEL TONIGHT?"
* "If you thought tonight's debate went more smoothly with one fewer participant, who should be voted off the stage next?"
October 30, 2007
8:41 PM
mike littwin writes:
Is anyone else out there rooting for lightning to hit the "lightning round" clock?
October 30, 2007
8:39 PM
maryj writes:
Media whatever,. what debate are you watching?
October 30, 2007
8:39 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Reid:
I would love to know where Obama, Edwards, and Biden stand on introducing an expansion of our nuclear energy capacity. A follow-up, how would they work with the eco-lobby to get it done.
France embraces nuclear energy, why can't we?
October 30, 2007
8:37 PM
maryj writes:
The challenge is for the candidates to transcend the contrast ads, and appear solid - president
NO the challenge is for the majority of citizens to say ENOUGH!! it serves nothing, and is an abomination.
the issues, the issues, the issues.
October 30, 2007
8:35 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
Media Lizzy:
Seriously, Biden?!? Jeez, okay... I'll tell his media guy for you.
On another note, I wrote a piece the other day on why Bobby Jindal's win isn't a sign that the Democratic wave has broken, and isn't a sign of trouble for Mary Landrieu.
And not to nitpick, but Haley Barbour is up for re-election next Tuesday, not last year. He's the heavy favorite to win.
October 30, 2007
8:35 PM
maryj writes:
Any of the candidates.
Like what John Edwards is talking about now, about Chinese low cost products, and nothing the American people can;t do, and gov't belongs to the demands of the people.
October 30, 2007
8:35 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
MaryJ:
It's Media LizzY, not Lizzie. I'm not Lizzie McGuire.
And the inconvenient truth is that sharp contrast ads and direct mail are the most effective form of communication. It sways voters, plain and simple.
The challenge is for the candidates to transcend the contrast ads, and appear solid - presidential.
October 30, 2007
8:35 PM
M.E. writes:
Question to any of the male candidates:
* As specifically as you can, tell me what policy stands make you a better alternative to Sen. Clinton than anybody else on the stage tonight.
Question to Biden:
* When you went after former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, were you trying to shift the focus of the debate off Sen. Clinton and onto the Republicans?
October 30, 2007
8:33 PM
maryj writes:
I'd be happy if I could afford solar panels here in hot humid Houston, unaffordable.
perhaps as China has started to produce them, however, my point the US needs to take the lead with affordability.
October 30, 2007
8:33 PM
mike littwin writes:
Check out chrisdodd.com for the talk clock, which shows which candidate is getting the most time in the debate. I think you can guess.
October 30, 2007
8:31 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
Maryj: Who should I ask that of? I can't ask everyone, so please be specific.
October 30, 2007
8:31 PM
maryj writes:
Could Media Lizzie stop, please.
October 30, 2007
8:31 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Reid:
Ask Biden if he would consider polygamy. Just kidding. I have a bit of a crush.
October 30, 2007
8:29 PM
maryj writes:
thanks Reid Wilson .
How can the dems be the party that takes this country in a new direction away from conspicuous consumption, away from dependence on oil,
make conservation patriotic?
October 30, 2007
8:28 PM
mike littwin writes:
Dems love the oil question. It's going to be a very tough one for whoever wins the Republican nomination to handle. Would you want to have to defend Bush's energy policy?
October 30, 2007
8:27 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
If the Dems did such a great job, why didn't Blanco run for reelection? Instead, they elected Republican Bobby Jindal with 54% of the vote.
Rick Perry won reelection in 2006. He handled the post-Katrina wave into Houston with dignity and speed. Haley Barbour won reelection handily in 2006.
The Katrina argument does not hold water. Pardon the pun.
October 30, 2007
8:27 PM
maryj writes:
Media Lizzie, stop running the pit bull tactics up the flag pole.
I for one will continue to speak out against this style.
the issues, the issues, the issues.
ME I want the dems candidates to speak like JFK did about what the USA can accomplish, & wonder why anyone will accept pit bull style?
October 30, 2007
8:25 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
An experiment: Any questions you all want me to ask in the spin room? Specify a candidate and I'll ask their surrogates what you'd like, then report back.
Any takers?
October 30, 2007
8:23 PM
M.E. writes:
This just in: potty talk has taken over the Mike Gravel live-blog.
October 30, 2007
8:23 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
The energy discussion is best of the debates so far. Though I am surprised Russert did not ask the nuclear question. Between 70 and 80% of the electricity in France is from nuclear power. No meltdowns, no accidents. No emissions.
Why not put the Dems on the spot?
October 30, 2007
8:23 PM
maryj writes:
I love that Obama, & candidates are talking cafe. yeah.
Make conspicuous consumption Unamerican, or Unpatriotic.
Then we might find a way to bring hope to a contry in disrepair.
In a joint effort to end our dependence on foreign oil, and bring industry in alternatives, that's what I hear in Obama.
anyone else?
October 30, 2007
8:21 PM
M.E. writes:
MaryJ, I was referring to Democrats singling out an opposing party candidate, like Giuliani, and drawing issue contrasts -- just like the Republicans all did by singling out Clinton.
October 30, 2007
8:21 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
MaryJ:
That tramples on free speech. If they can't take the heat, then they shouldn't be in the kitchen. Presidential politics ain't beanbag, as James Baker has said.
October 30, 2007
8:18 PM
maryj writes:
"it's a Southern way of speaking that is endearing and family-focused. It wins."
Media Lizzie, another example of the sad state of affairs in our election process.
The issues, the issues, the issues.
October 30, 2007
8:17 PM
M.E. writes:
Mary, Read my post of 8:07 p.m. All the candidates are fairly similar on issues -- from backing some form of universal health care to energy independence, etc. It is difficult to see policy differences that could separate those and other candidates.
October 30, 2007
8:15 PM
maryj writes:
The pit bull attack dogs serve no one, on both side of the aisle.
Let the campaign focus on the issues.
The abominable tactics you describe should be left to cover Brit & Lindsey.
October 30, 2007
8:15 PM
M.E. writes:
LITTWIN: It would be interesting if one of the top-tier men, Obama or Edwards, decided to take Biden's tactic as a way of distinguishing himself. The Republican presidential contenders ALL scored big laugh lines attacking Clinton. Looks like the Democrats don't want to do that. (It's not just the hosts focusing all the attention on Clinton. It's her rivals, too. They can shift the debate away from her if they wanted, but they prefer to try to set up a head-to-head.)
October 30, 2007
8:13 PM
maryj writes:
The MSM has played Hillary's lead to the hilt, it seems to me that the msg of Edwards and Obama are similar.
ME have you heard distinct differences in their stumps?
October 30, 2007
8:11 PM
M.E. writes:
Obama is being asked about Republican Mitt Romney's repeated Osama/Obama slip/quip.
He turns down a chance to attack Romney directly. Instead, he's going the uplifting route.
October 30, 2007
8:11 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
MaryJ:
The comparison stands, it's a Southern way of speaking that is endearing and family-focused. It wins.
Also, when it comes to oversight - that is the job of the United States Congress. I have been very public in my criticism of the GOP-led Congress - and believed they deserved to lose.
However, when it comes to tactics - the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth folks are just as entitled to put forward their point of view, just as the MoveOn.org folks or any other group.
The American people have to VOTE not just talk, demonstrate, or complain. We all have a responsibility to participate.
October 30, 2007
8:09 PM
mike littwin writes:
Biden gets the line of the night, but Rudy is not what this night is about. It's Russert asking Clinton a tough question and then asking Obama and Edwards whether they want to say something nasty about her, too.
October 30, 2007
8:07 PM
M.E. writes:
I think this is a fair question. It's one I've asked both Sen. Edwards AND Sen. Obama on the stump.
Since their audiences are populated with people who, for the most part, are looking for an alternative to Sen. Clinton, why do they focus all their attention on drawing contrasts with her instead of drawing clear distinctions with each other (Edwards and Obama)?
Neither one wants to contrast himself with anyone other than Sen. Clinton. Clearly, they each want to win the Anybody-But-Clinton (ABC) sweepstakes outright. But nobody controls all the ABC votes right now.
October 30, 2007
8:07 PM
Lynda Waddington writes:
I am so happy that Tim Russert is there tonight.
Edwards and Biden seem to be having good nights so far. Obama is also showing some strength. Dodd is doing well, but not being given much opportunity to talk. Clinton is not only getting hammered on stage, but seems to be a target for Russert as well.
October 30, 2007
8:07 PM
maryj writes:
ME sorry about the triple post, however I really do emphasize Edwards/Thompson, Please no comparison. Please
October 30, 2007
8:04 PM
maryj writes:
Media Lizzy *please do not compare Edwards to Thompson, what an insult to John Edwards.
October 30, 2007
8:03 PM
maryj writes:
Media Lizzy *please do not compare Edwards to Thompson, what an insult to John Edwards.
October 30, 2007
8:03 PM
maryj writes:
Media Lizzy *please do no compare Edwards to Thompson, what an insult to John Edwards.
October 30, 2007
8:02 PM
M.E. writes:
Sen. Biden just scored the one-liner of the night -- sure to be played on all the morning talk shows, by brushing aside all this everybody-against Clinton talk and taking the attack directly at Republican front-runner Rudy Giuliani:
"There's only three things he mentions in a sentence: a noun and a verb and 9/11."
He calls Giuliani unqualified. And then, as is his habit, Biden takes a shot at Richardson, too.
October 30, 2007
8:02 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Great moment for Biden. Rudy can only say a noun, a verb and 9/11 - lovely.
Nice dig at Richardson too.
October 30, 2007
8:01 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
Line of the night so far: "There are only three things [Rudy Giuliani] says in a sentence, a noun, a verb, and 9/11."
-- Joe Biden
October 30, 2007
7:59 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Edwards is scoring points with independents - the "Founding Fathers" bit was really good. He's fighting for it tonight. (And making the same argument about our kids and future generations as Fred Thompson does.)
Maybe it's a Southern thing that he knows how to talk about it.
October 30, 2007
7:58 PM
maryj writes:
Media Lizz, the American people need to demand an end to the GOP pit bull tactics you allude to,
It's time for oversight of an executive branch that sold this country OUT, good for all the good all boys bush/cheney owe...bad for this country, secret prisons in eastern europe, habeas corpus, no oversight, creating abominable abuse by a vp of torture , and a photo op president, need to end.
October 30, 2007
7:57 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
ME, apologies for not seeing your post earlier. Yes, Clinton benefits hugely from the division of the Anybody But Clinton crowd.
What we're seeing tonight is Barack Obama as the front-runner among the ABC crowd, and John Edwards trying his best to step all over his toes.
The consensus in the filing center: Edwards is doing much better than Obama tonight.
October 30, 2007
7:54 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
Thanks, Maryj.
Bill Richardson pitches in with the first defense of Clinton all night. Many had predicted this -- Who Wants To Be A Running Mate?
October 30, 2007
7:53 PM
mike littwin writes:
Edwards just went from making sharp distinctions with Clinton to taking gratuitous shots at Clinton. Tooth fairy? This has always been where the Clinton have won -- when people overreach in going after them.
Obama is getting better. (It's Hillary to him; Sen. Clinton to Edwards.)
Clinton looks defensive, because, well, Williams and Russert keep dropping bombs on her.
October 30, 2007
7:53 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Well, from my Republican point of view - when Hillary brings up the Supreme Court "handing" Bush the election, then going on to use the word "Halliburton" - she is making sweet music for Republican ears.
It may give her a win, in a Pavlovian way, with the Democrat base voters - but - she just wrote an ad for the Swift Boat boys.
October 30, 2007
7:52 PM
M.E. writes:
Obama just had his clearest moment to POLITELY contrast himself with Clinton.
He talked about the Republicans attacking her and said, "That's a fight they're very comfortable having..."
That brings up the image of the rancorous old days, and Obama says this debate should be about finding ways to bring Democrats and Republicans together to solve issues.
He might or might not score points with that.
Edwards is far more blunt, saying of Republicans, re. Clinton: "They may actually want too run against you..."
Edwards also is the first candidate to reference Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy (a person who will be quite busy after all the candy I've given away in Des Moines tonight).
October 30, 2007
7:50 PM
maryj writes:
I love that Sen Obama said the GOP love Hillary, I think her numbers are hype, & the GOP want her to be the nominee right they want to run against her.
Here in the TX Bible Belt I hear hatred directed toward Hillary, I like her but firmly believe she is not electable, and I want Edwards/Obama, or Obama/Edwards, I believe a more electable ticket.
After working hard on Kerry/Edwards ticket w/Sen Kerry's good msg poor campaign, I want a ticket that will win.
October 30, 2007
7:49 PM
Rich writes:
Since both the Republicans and Democrats are quickly approaching implosion and thinking of other ways to throw good money after bad, does one get the feeling that the American voters will start looking toward the states seceding from the Union?
October 30, 2007
7:48 PM
M.E. writes:
Highlights from the Gravel site:
* Colbert fans are vying with Ron Paul supporters to sneak in the most live-blog comments.
* Gravel folks are asking of the MSNBC debate: "Richardson is there but Gravel isn't?"
October 30, 2007
7:47 PM
maryj writes:
It seems Sen. Clinton is rehashing her rhetoric, not bringing anything new to the table.
I agree with Sen. Obama, same old, safe same old.
October 30, 2007
7:47 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Speaking of the archives, I wonder how she feels about Sandy Berger. Oh, right... he's an "adviser."
October 30, 2007
7:46 PM
Lynda Waddington writes:
Just had a friend call and ask me: "What's up with Hillary's eyebrows?" Anyone?
October 30, 2007
7:45 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
A thought: If Clinton gets the nomination, does Arkansas become more important in her message?
Kinda red state (yeah, five out of six of their members of Congress are Dems, but it voted for Pres. Bush twice) that she worked in. Sounds like a good message, at least better than New York.
October 30, 2007
7:43 PM
mike littwin writes:
This has been a great night for Edwards so far. Obama's NY Times story made it OK to go after Clinton, and Edwards has gone tough without looking like a bully. Obama has pulled his punches. The rest of the guys are up there just so someone can say, "I agree with Joe . . . "
October 30, 2007
7:43 PM
M.E. writes:
Reid and others:
Do you think Sen. Clinton benefits from having the anti-Clinton vote split among Obama, Edwards and others? Or would she be doing just as well in a head-to-head matchup with either of her lead rivals?
October 30, 2007
7:40 PM
maryj writes:
OOps, trick or treat, all hallows's eve, eve. ME, will it be trick or treat. sorry about those rockies, happy for the RedSox. mj
October 30, 2007
7:39 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Edwards is making an issue of "truth" repeatedly. It hearkens back to the rhetoric used against Bill Clinton after the perjury/impeachment days. I wonder if Edwards is doing that on purpose... it's a message that might win him kudos among independent voters.
October 30, 2007
7:39 PM
M.E. writes:
Edwards repeated a few of the charges he has been making on the campaign trail, citing a Clinton campaign statement that she was approaching issues in "general election mode." Edwards: "We should be in tell-the-truth mode."
October 30, 2007
7:39 PM
maryj writes:
Hi Reid Wilson, Thank you for your post describing the atmosphere, great description,
a bit late, computer slowdown, I really appreciate Brian Williams going right to the heart with the ? to Sen. Obama about his statement.
Hope there'll be less Iran, more of what's happening now, like Blackwater, AG nomination, waterboarding torture of bush/cheney.
October 30, 2007
7:39 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
Edwards is doing very well tonight. Big question: With Obama seemingly playing the role of anyone-but-Clinton, will Edwards go after him as well?
He probably should.
October 30, 2007
7:36 PM
Lynda Waddington writes:
Actually, Kucinich does have at least one staff person in Iowa.
October 30, 2007
7:36 PM
M.E. writes:
Obama is given another chance to critique Clinton. It dawns on me that "critique" is the accurate verb. He doesn't "rip," "blast," "lambast," etc. He critiques her over the Iran resolution vote. As Reid said earlier, I wonder if that's the sort of taking-off-the-gloves moment that some of his backers are expecting.
October 30, 2007
7:35 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
If this were a Republican debate, Hillary would have brought up Kouchner, or Sarkozy of France --- because they are now engaged diplomatically on the Iraq issue.
October 30, 2007
7:33 PM
M.E. writes:
Reid. I suspect that Andy from Dubuque will be contacting you in the morning.
October 30, 2007
7:33 PM
Lynda Waddington writes:
Actually, Kucinich does have at least one staff person in Iowa.
October 30, 2007
7:32 PM
M.E. writes:
Candidates are asked whether they'll pledge to prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons
Clinton: "everything I can to prevent Iran from developing a nuclear bomb."
Edwards: "all the responsible steps that can be taken."
Obama: "all of us are commited to Iran not having nuclear weapons..." He then expands to say the "politics of fear" has distorted America's domestic policies.
Biden: "I would pledge to keep us safe." He brings in a broader perspective, saying "an out of control Pakistan" would represent an even bigger threat if there were political upheaval in the existing nuclear power.
Dodd: Agrees with Biden about Pakistan posing a more serious issue than Iran. And yet again, he touts his experience.
Richardson: Says he'd make the pledge "and it would be through diplomacy." He talks about preventing loose nukes or loose nuclear materials from becoming an iminent threat. And he suddenly changes the subject to point to a man in the fourth row of the audience that he helped release from captivity through diplomacy.
Kucinich: He says, with all due respect to the media, the media has to be careful with these types of questions, so they don't take the U.S. to the brink of war with Iran.
AND ON THE GRAVEL SITE: Gravel is sitting in a chair listening. UPDATE: He's walking around now. And his fans get to watch.
October 30, 2007
7:31 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
I continue to say that if Kucinich muted some of his positions, gained 20 pounds and went to the gym occasionally, he'd be a great candidate. He's a lot better in debates than anyone else gives him credit for.
That being said, as Gravel sits out the debate, some think Kucinich should be excluded as well. He has no offices or staffers in Iowa, and his campaign appearances aren't aimed at winning votes.
October 30, 2007
7:31 PM
Lynda Waddington writes:
Hi, everyone! Are we all enjoying the fireworks thus far? I was thinking Biden and/or Dodd was going to dance across the stage and attack Richardson when he proclaimed he was the only one who had negotiated.
October 30, 2007
7:30 PM
mike littwin writes:
This stuff is new, in that all the candidates are going strongly after Clinton, togehter, on a national stage (OK, MSNBC). Edwards is doing it the best, so far. As I said, he relishes it. Obama has gone downhill since the Rocky line.
By the way, the Russert pledge question is dumb. What he means is, Will you bomb Iran? These are two entirely different points.
October 30, 2007
7:28 PM
Lynda Waddington writes:
Hi, everyone! Are we all enjoying the fireworks thus far? I was thinking Biden and/or Dodd was going to dance across the stage and attack Richardson when he proclaimed he was the only one who had negotiated.
October 30, 2007
7:28 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
I continue to say that if Kucinich muted some of his positions, gained 20 pounds and went to the gym occasionally, he'd be a great candidate. He's a lot better in debates than anyone else gives him credit for.
That being said, as Gravel sits out the debate, some think Kucinich should be excluded as well. He has no offices or staffers in Iowa, and his campaign appearances aren't aimed at winning votes.
October 30, 2007
7:27 PM
Lynda Waddington writes:
Hi, everyone! Are we all enjoying the fireworks thus far? I was thinking Biden and/or Dodd was going to dance across the stage and attack Richardson when he proclaimed he was the only one who had negotiated.
October 30, 2007
7:23 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Edwards will make headlines tomorrow if he keeps it up.
Richardson's inflated sense of self is almost a joke. He's the "only" one who's negotiated with bad guys? Um, it is a little late to start lying. His record is verifiable. His North Korea deal fell apart moments after it was struck.
October 30, 2007
7:23 PM
M.E. writes:
Richardson gets heckled from one of his colleagues (don't know which yet) for saying he's the only one on the stage who has actually negotiated with foreign leaders (as U.N. Ambassador and otherwise).
It's worth noting that Sen. Biden has attacked Richardson at several debates, and we'll see if he does it again tonight.
October 30, 2007
7:20 PM
M.E. writes:
The attacks -- even on the Iran vote -- do not seem to be new.
Edwards just upped the ante, by dropping the word "neocons" in talking about the Iran resolution, saying Clinton and those who voted for it gave president Bush and those "neocons" exactly what they wanted.
His repeated use of the term raises a specter in a liberal crowd.
October 30, 2007
7:20 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
All this carrots & sticks talk - sounds like she's making salad.
October 30, 2007
7:17 PM
M.E. writes:
There was a surreal scene at the Gravel live-blog.
As the first round of questions began (on a slight delay), Gravel stood on a stage, turned his back on the live studio audience and began watching Obama and Edwards begin their attacks on Clinton.
At that moment, the audio went into slow motion on the Gravel site, giving it a spooky sound befitting of the Halloween season.
October 30, 2007
7:15 PM
mike littwin writes:
It's everyone vs. Hillary. All Dems and all Republicans. The question is whether this causes more people to question her or defend her.
October 30, 2007
7:15 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Senator Biden is the smartest guy in the race. But he hasn't a prayer of being president unless Hillary and Obama both lose their cookies.
October 30, 2007
7:13 PM
mike littwin writes:
First round. Edwards vs. Obama on attacking Clinton: Edwards wins, easily. He enjoys this stuff, and Obama still looks uncomfortable going on the attack.
October 30, 2007
7:13 PM
M.E. writes:
In their opening salvos against Clinton, who scored? Obama, Edwards or neither?
October 30, 2007
7:11 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Littwin has better hair than Gravel.
October 30, 2007
7:11 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
I get the feeling that tonight is an audition for the general election. Based on the first ten minutes, Hillary Clinton showed she can fend off attacks and go on offense. John Edwards laid out his charges coolly, calmly and effectively.
Barack Obama did not, though, do himself any favors by backing off his weekend New York Times interview.
October 30, 2007
7:10 PM
M.E. writes:
Clinton brushed aside the Republican-lite charge (which is NOT A NEW ONE BY THE WAY) by citing the repeated attacks she gets from Republicans. If that works as a force field, it's sure to be with her for months to come. There's no sign that the GOP candidates are warming to her.
If folks think she sounds or acts like a Republican, "I don't think the Republicans got the message..." she said
October 30, 2007
7:10 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Hillary does not like being challenged. It's time for fireworks. Come on Obama... Edwards - stick it to her or get out of the race.
October 30, 2007
7:06 PM
M.E. writes:
Welcome LITTWIN -- has anyone told you you look like Mike Gravel?
October 30, 2007
7:05 PM
M.E. writes:
Sen. Obama already is being asked about his interview saying he planned to get more tough on Sen. Clinton (like when he accused her of trying to "sound Republican"):
He already compares himself to Rocky in the Rocky-Apollo Creed fight.
He is given a chance to list the issues where they disagree:
* He accuses her of changing positions where it's politically convenient -- on NAFTA, on torture, on the Iraq war.
October 30, 2007
7:05 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Obama is finally pushing the envelope. Wonder if he'll drive it all the way thru the debate.
October 30, 2007
7:03 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
Obama backs off his comments first. Big donors around the country slam their heads against walls.
October 30, 2007
7:00 PM
mike littwin writes:
I'm standing in for Mike Gravel.
October 30, 2007
6:58 PM
M.E. writes:
Anti-Gravel folks are starting to sneak more comments on their live-blog: "Stop wasting time on someone who can't win," someone just posted. Meanwhile, Ron Paul's fans are out in full force over there. And now someone just suggested a "Gravel Colbert" ticket.
The main debate on MSNBC is about to begin, and like everyone I'll be listening to hear if Sen. Obama and former Sen. Edwards really step up their attacks on Sen. Clinton.
October 30, 2007
6:55 PM
M.E. writes:
I posted the live video feed from Gravel's headquarters above. It's going to be an interesting event over there, with the MSNBC telecast behind Gravel as he speaks and, presumably heckles the other Democrats in REAL TIME.
October 30, 2007
6:52 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
Podium order, left to right: Dodd, Biden, Edwards, Clinton, Obama, Kucinich, Richardson
October 30, 2007
6:27 PM
M.E. writes:
The Gravel chat is now consumed by a debate over the Illuminati and who is or is not a fascist. They were discussing the John Birch Society a few seconds ago. The chat is happening so quickly, that I'm not sure how anyone can keep up.
October 30, 2007
6:20 PM
M.E. writes:
At the Gravel event, they're waging this debate, fast and furiously, right now:
"Let's have the vote now: Who is worse? Rudy or Hillary?"
October 30, 2007
6:13 PM
M.E. writes:
There are several hundred people already mounting a fast-and-furious live-chat at the Gravel site.
If you're a speed-reader, check it out:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/senator-mike-gravel-vs-msnbc--live-from-philadelphia---6pm-pt-7pm-mt-9pm-et
October 30, 2007
6:04 PM
M.E. writes:
Before we get started, I must report that Beggar's Night in Des Moines is OFF THE HOOK!
The kids do their trick-or-treating on Oct. 30, not the 31st. And they don't get candy until they tell us a joke.
Some of the material has been rather blue so far.
* A 7-year-old gladiator just asked me: "What's the strongest letter in the alphabet?" Dunno. "P," he said. "Even Superman can't hold it."
* Another child asked: "Why can't jack-o-lanterns have babies?" Dunno. "Because they have Halloweenies."
And I gave three Kit Kat bars to the kid who asked: "Why can't 'G-Unit' ride the bus?" Dunno. "Because they don't have Fiddy Cent." (Google it, old folks.)
October 30, 2007
5:56 PM
M.E. writes:
It has all been done before, Reid.
CHECK THIS OUT, from a live-blog earlier this year:
http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/sprengelmeyer/archives/2007/06/la_lucha_liveblogging_the_repu.html
October 30, 2007
5:39 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
One other note: Listen to the language, read up on the debate previews. Everyone, but EVERYONE, is using boxing metaphors. Even I did -- noting that we're only a short distance from the Rocky Balboa statue on the steps of the Philadelphia Art Museum.
Ding Ding Ding!
October 30, 2007
5:28 PM
Reid Wilson writes:
Greetings once again, ME and Rockies nation. In honor of you all, I was rooting hard for your team last week, and I'm sorry it ended the way it did.
But, tomorrow's another day. Heck, my team's NEVER won a World Series. Stupid Mariners.
I'm here in Philadelphia, on the beautiful campus of Drexel University, and I just took a little walk outside to see the crowds cheer for their candidates. There's a huge Biden presence tonight -- not surprising given Philly's close proximity to downtown Wilmington -- and the Obama and Clinton folk are trying to outscream each other.
In the spin room, the pre-debate hype has worn off, the debate preview stories have been written, and now reporters are spending their time catching up and chatting before kickoff.
Kudos, by the way, to Drexel University for their custom-made "Debate at Drexel" ball caps and reporter's notebooks. We'll have more as the debate starts, but for now, this reporter is going to investigate the dining hall, courtesy the Drexel University News Service.
October 30, 2007
3:19 PM
Roni Bell writes:
Questions to candidates for president:
How would you characterize your aura of influence, and the impact your actions are having on our young?
Aside from yourself, who do you believe is honest?
October 30, 2007
2:34 PM
gravel kucinich paul nader writes:
GE NBC DNC are in panic mode re: $1,000,000.00 & more people outside with gravel than IN hall - much more great news tonight -
October 30, 2007
2:33 PM
Media Lizzy writes:
Wow, this election really is a freak show. A Gravel party??? Good luck with that, ME!!!
I'm looking forward to seeing if Biden looks to score points on the Mukasey nomination battle. Obama has to show more than how to boogie-down with Ellen Degeneres.